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A NOT SO FAIR FIGHT: ATH W5000 vs SENN HD600+; Rantings of a Noob Reviewer Wannabee!
Topic Started: 13 Nov 2006, 07:02 PM (1,998 Views)
scottiebabie
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A Not So Fair Fight: ATH W5000 vs SENN HD600+Mogami 2534 cable

Disclaimer:
1st and foremost, any and every word used in this post is the personal view and opinion of this author. I have no doubt that others may and will see things differently. The usual “whatever floats your boat”, IMO and YMMV holds true.
2nd, as this is my 1st foray in any audio review, do excuse my use (misuse more likely) of any and all audio and headfi terminology as I’m still grasping with
hifi/headfi descriptive expressions of musica. Also, having only had a previous hifi past with just a few months of any serious headfi experience of note, please take my “review” for what it is – the rantings of a self professed headfi noob.
3rd, any perceived criticisms of the HD600 and W5K are used only in the context of this comparo and is strictly my personal opinion. I own both sets of cans so it’s not a matter of prejudice for me. So to all SENN and ATH Fanboyz, please sheath your swords!
4th, be that as it may that a certain AKG or a particular STAX may better the W5K or
HD600 in this aspect and that area, I will nevertheless limit my opinions to what’s
stated here as I have no direct personal experience with any other SOTA headfons.

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the sexy Intro:
I don’t think there’s much left unsaid about the Sennheiser HD600. It’s been on the market for quite a while and the “reference” of many a magazine reviewer. I would like to add that the majority is of the opinion that the HD6x0 should have, nay, must have an after market replacement cable to unveil its true beauty and I must say I fully agree. Infact, I’ve replaced the original cable with the Mogami Neglex which is a fine, affordable sonic choice IMO. Suffice to say that the HD600 improved greatly in almost all respects post Mogami, so much so that the HD600 felt like a new set of fons to me. I actually spent some weeks rediscovering my music collection! And yes, the HD600 is fully burn-in IMO (forgotten how many hours but it’s very many for sure)

The W5k is Audio Technica’s current top of the line production woodie. I won’t bother with the technical specs as it’s easily available if you consult uncle GOOGLE. The majority is of the opinion that the original cable is plenty fine and there are no sonic benefits to a cable upgrade, aesthetics aside of course. Burn-in is at least 200 hours and IMO the W5K belongs to the genre of headfons that absolutely needs a good deal of burn-in. I can attest to the fact that the headfon I tried on 3 weeks ago for the 1st time is NOT the same beast that I have now.

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Fit and Finish:
The HD600 comes in its own hard canvas type cardboard (hardboard?) case with foam cutouts to fit the cans. The build material is “carbon fiber” headband with metal mesh sides. And of course the headfon side and top headband foam pads. Overall, a nice looking set of cans but nothing to write momma about. Compared with the W5K, the HD600 fits like a “vise” clamping with some force around your ears although it does get better with time and I could wear it for hours without much complaints. The bonus is that the fit is very easy to acquire as the large earpads cover the ears circumaurally and not much adjustment is needed, for me at least.

In contrast, the W5K presents to my noggins at least, a loosey-goosey fit that is both circumaural and supraaural. The woodie cups are more than big enough to wrap around my ears but the earpad cutouts are not big enough to fit the whole ear and so a portion of the pad sits on the outer ears. While pressurizing the woodie cups over my ears with both hands seems to afford me a tad more bottom end, I do not find bass lacking in any manner sans pressurization.

The W5K woodie comes wrapped in velvet in its own samsonite type mini flight case. The Ebony or Zebrawood on both sides of the cups has a natural darkish non glossy finish with the earpads made of genuine Spanish lambskin. Even the cable comes wrapped in its own velvet pouch so as not to scratch the wooden cups. To me, the W5K embodies the word sensual and indeed I must admit that I’m a shallow man and that looks played a large part for the purchase. If the HD600 is the girl next door, the W5K is the prom queen. ‘Nuff said…

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Ancillary Equipment Used for Review
Marantz CD-67SE (as transport)
Zhaolu D2 (CS DAC) with upgraded Discrete Headamp (slightly modded by bypassing 4DC output caps and replacing 3 opa2604 with 3 opa2107)
PCWORK diy associated interconnect/coaxial cables

Notes on Sonic Impressions with Various Music Genres
Reggae ala UB40
W5K: very involving and fun to listen to. Treble details presented delicately as usual, voice forward and involving and bass very engaging with loads of weight and definition without any bloat. Superb clarity, bright without any sibilance. Engaging performance.
HD600: slightly congested with a 2D left, right and centre presentation. Details however is presented with great clarity and amazing delineation making it easy to follow any instruments. Bass while euphonic sounds bloated by comparison.

Modern pop ala Daniel Powter
W5K: Good tight detailed bass that lets u hear all there is. Treble presented with clarity and details. Very quick transient response. Daniel’s voice is very forward and can be bright and sharp if too loud. Can sound slightly thin on some tracks.
HD600: a more balanced performance with good clear treble details. No sibilance noted. Daniels voice is laid back. Very noticeable left/right/centre channel sound reminiscence of 3 point 2D soundstage. Still, quite a musical performance though less engaging. Piano played realistically with impact. Background details presented very well though slightly harsher. Bass is once again meaty but with less definition. A more polite performance.

Rock ala Eagles (Hell Freezes Over)
W5K: nice balance overall sound. Never harsh but with subtle details delicately presented. Don Henly seems like he’s singing in front of me. Even the slower, bland countryish tracks sound exciting and full. Xylophones portions are exquisite. Acoustic guitars are nicely presented with solid imaging.
HD600: this is one genre that HD600 sounds exciting in comparo. Once again, bottom sounds bloated. Otherwise, good solid presentation of details with Don Henly’s voice back in line with rest of the band. Although the left/right 2D emphasis is slightly uncomfortable, overall presentation is very balanced with good impact. A matter of preference for the engaging W5K or the balanced HD600.

Modern PopRock ala Kelly Clarkson
W5K: tight solid bass with quick responses. Treble details are presented delicately and definitely not the in your face variety. Kelly’s voice comes across forward of the stage with clarity and realism. Very engaging. Piano can have a slight hint of shrillness. Guitars sound very real and close. Dynamic and tonal changes handled wonderfully. Feels like Kelly’s singing in front of me. Can be slightly bright sounding with slower tracks but rocks with the faster tracks with a big full open 3D soundstage.
HD600: similar soundstage but with Kelly sounding further back. Piano sounds great with superb realism although bass bloat can overwhelm some of the music. Details are very clear with good impact. Feels slower probably because of slower reacting bass. Bass decay seems slightly unnatural. Overall a less engaging performance and sounding like a recording. Good solid soundstage albeit with a prominent 3point source effect.

Rap, RapRock, GrungeRock, etc.. ala The Fast and Furious:Tokyo Drift Soundtrack
W5K: well balanced performance with good impact. Male voices comes across being real and engaging. Once again, treble details presented well with stylish delicacy, never harsh or rough. Fast tracks are handled beautifully with serious fun factor. Guitars sound devilishly enticing. Total musicality that gets not only my feet but the head bobbing. Higher pitch voices (esp. certain female) can be bright sounding at times. Handling of fast rock transients is amazing. Instrumental fast rock tracks are deliciously presented. The W5K lives to go Fast and Furious!
HD600: again, bottom bass sounds bloated by comparison. Otherwise sounds decent on slower mex-rap tracks with guitars sounding quite good. Voices are laid back making higher listening volumes viable. Good expression of treble details without any harshness. Bass does get overwhelmed by faster tracks sounding muddy and having an unnatural slowing effect on the song.

Techno Electronica ala The Chemical Brothers
W5K: handles fast bass and electronica transients wonderfully, very quick and tight, good clear bass, never muddy, treble very detailed and crystal clear. Never a big fan of The Chem Bros but it’s the best performance I’ve heard. Musical, involving and simply head bobbing rocking!
HD600: bass not catching up and makes the bottom muddy. Closed-in and bland by comparison. Not very exciting for Techno genre.

Heavy Metal ala Metallica
W5K: ahhh….this is how serious metal should sound. Perfect balance of slam, quickness, details and soundstage. Guitars riffs are striking. Never congested or harsh but open, clear and musical. “an intimate evening with Metallica” comes to mind. Simply wunderbar!
HD600: tubby bass muddies and slows the presentation, sounds rolled off at the top end, slow-mo imitation of metallica, unengaging and distant, bland by comparison.

R&B ala Indrie Arie
W5K: Indrie’s voice is forceful yet very seductive, piano come out strongly, bass and bottom end is just right whilst high treble never irritates but are delicately detailed. Again, an intimate and engaging performance.
HD600: Piano sounds slightly laid back but very good, Indrie comes across well, treble is not harsh but well detailed though slightly stiffer but the bottom end is very bloated by comparison. Overall sounds are slightly congested and though nice, the presentation is not intimate.

Latino Mariachi ala Gypsy Kings
W5K: Only fly in the ointment is voices can sound a tad bright and sharp in certain passages, otherwise par excellence performance. Guitars sound amazing esp. instrumental passages and tracks. Imaging is rock solid in the 3D soundstage. I love it!
HD600: a definite subdued but even performance with guitars sounding a tad tubby and slow by comparison.

Conclusion:
I can go on and on but I believe the message is clear. If I give the impression that I don’t like the Senn HD600, it couldn’t be further from the truth. My 1st set of high end cans is the HD600 and I’m an unabashed Senn fanboy. In, of and by itself, the HD600 is a very good set of headfons (esp. post Mogami cable replacement). They are wonderfully balanced and sound even better loud. Detail layering is amazing and I can follow most instruments within their spatial soundfield. That being said however, I finally understand adjectives like subdued, laid back, slow, bland, treble rolloff and even veiled (if ever so slightly) when used to describe the HD600. Held in the light of the W5K, I found some extra adjectives – bass bloat and bottom end muddiness.

In contra, the W5K draws me in with intimacy and realism. High treble details while presented in abundance never bite but rather tickle the senses with a liquidity reminiscence of a past experience with the legendary Quad ESL 63. Yes, the W5K to me has that special speed, delicacy, transparency and exquisite delivery of a Quad electrostatic performance. Unlike the Quads (thankfully), the W5K’s bottom end sounds wonderfully full, tight and defined and makes the HD600 bottom seem overblown. And I love bass and have never thought the HD600’s bottom overdone in any way, shape or form!

Ooh and did I mention that amazing 3D soundstage? The W5K envelops me in a full elliptical sound bubble encompassing all of width, depth and even height! In comparison, the HD600 seems 2D with all sounds emanating from a single plane with a 3 point (left/right/centre) sound source. Again, the W5K’s 3D soundstage reminds me of how a good analogue turntable (I owned a VPI turntable, SME IV tonearm, KOETSU blackgold cartridge stylus in a previous life) presents music in comparison to modern digital CDPs. In fact, to me the W5K is analogue whilst the HD600 represents digital (albeit very good digital).

Alas, all’s not well in paradise and IMO the W5K’s Achilles heel is in the forward midrange emphasis. In a hit or miss fashion, voices and piano especially, can sound wonderfully close and intimate or bright and even shrill (though never sibilant). Lowering the volume can tone this down but that detracts from my personal listening experience as I like it loud.

Research at headfi.org and my own, albeit limited, experience leads me to suspect this midrange “flaw” can be tamed (or at least controlled) with appropriate upstream electronics. Audio Technica sells an amp, HA5000, specifically designed for the W5K and I’ve read that certain SS and tube amps can do wonderful things to tone down this peculiarity. IMO, I believe the W5K’s inherent strengths warrant the extra effort to match it with correct electronics.

I have no doubt that my present ancillary setup is the weak link and doesn’t come close to doing the W5K justice. Despite this weak setup and the “hot” midrange, the W5K draws me in to the music to stir my emotions, soothe the beast (yadi yadi yada…) like nothing else. My past hifi experiences are with speakers and I used headfons begrudgingly only for the convenience of having portable music as I absolutely dislike anything wrapped over my head. On top of the discomfort issue, I was of the opinion that “real” music comes from a 3D soundstage in front of me and NOT between the ears and in my head. Even with the “flaw”, the W5K has not only transcended my headfi dislike (and misconceptions as it turns out) but has replaced my hifi speakers to become THE music reproducer of choice! IMO, if the appropriate upstream electronics can subdue this midrange “flaw” (and I use the term “flaw” loosely and only in comparison to everything else that the W5K does so wonderfully), the W5K is a world class act.

Addendum: as I’ve been so kindly informed of a certain “honky” trait of the W5K, I’ve searched high and low in an attempt to discover this “honkiness”. Perhaps because of my inexperience, the only “abnormality” I can discern is the hot midrange that I mentioned in the above review. Any other perceived ‘weirdness’ or ‘hollowness’ in any tracks can also be heard by both the HD600 and W5K. As luck would have it, I’ve also encountered no rattle/s of any sorts.

A special note: I would like to offer a big thank you to fellow headfier, Topgun, for not only helping me snag the deal on the W5K and deliver it safely to my hands but also with the burn-in of the cans so much so that I only had to do 1day of burn-in before the W5K bloomed. Thanks again Topgun, for being super trustworthy, reliable and an all round good guy. Anyone who says otherwise will have to answer to me!!! :flex: ;)
In music the passions enjoy themselves.- NIETZSCHE

"If you are sissy girl you can't adapt when something dangerous happens. But if you are extreme it's like another day at the office. In the long-term it's safer to live extreme than live like sissy girl.
If you are extreme and start relaxing, that's when the problems start. If you are a skydiver you eventually forget to bring your parachute" - PATRICK82
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TopGun
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Comprehensive indeed! :kowtow:

No worries pal, we all got to enjoy this pair of W5k thanks to you!

Thanks for clearing up that "weird midrange" of Audio Technica's issues, at least now I feel better. :)

Kudos!

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zonalblitz
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Nice review you got there! Hope to see more of your works!

Kudos!
If impressing/being impressed is how it gets you around, forget it. It is not gonna happen.
The world of audiophile and fine living is not an Olympics.

Team "> Two Thousand Dollars Only" per Portable Audio Rig

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scottiebabie
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zonalblitz
Nov 13 2006, 07:21 PM
Nice review you got there! Hope to see more of your works!

Kudos!

thxs for the encouragement guyz. sure appreciate it :lol:

dont think i'l be doin any more "reviews" anytime soon! me bank manager isnt giving me any more $$$. howeva, if some of you's can hold a gun, drive a getaway car, have a hidey hole..perhaps something can be arranged :k701smile:
In music the passions enjoy themselves.- NIETZSCHE

"If you are sissy girl you can't adapt when something dangerous happens. But if you are extreme it's like another day at the office. In the long-term it's safer to live extreme than live like sissy girl.
If you are extreme and start relaxing, that's when the problems start. If you are a skydiver you eventually forget to bring your parachute" - PATRICK82
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scanfiend
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Moderatus Supremus - Da Big Stick
Scottiebabie, dude! A most entertaining and informative review! Your sense of humour surely showed (who would've thunk? Considering your earlier postings of SMS type speak - I was worried there for a while :D )

Indeed, I had the pleasure of listening to your 'cans, prior to being brought back to KL - all in the interests of furthering my audio horizons, mind you, and to help in the burning in :lol: . In the limited time I auditioned them, my impressions were the same as yours: amazingly transparent and neutral.

Do post more often, I enjoy your writing :P

p.s. what's with the dogma in your avatar? The only dogma I know of is a Japanese Vid Company that produces....erm...."stimulating" films. lol
Amps (Portable): XM3, Xin Supermini v5, GoVibe V5, Xenos REP, Portaphile
V2^2 (maxxed), Headroom TotalAirHead, Xtra X-1, RSA Hornet-M (Gold), Headamp AE2, Headamp Pico, Graham Slee Voyager
Interconnects: Currently: xxx's Red Series, ALO SCD (AU/AG)
Amps (Desktop): Firestone Audio Beyond, Firestone Audio Little Country
Headphone/earphones: Sennheiser HD590, AKG K601, Grado SR80, Grado MS Pros, Denon AD5000, Denon C700, OVC TC20, Sony EX90LP, AT CK9,CrossRoads Mylar (1-3), UE TripleFi 10 Pro, UE-11 Pro
Sources: Panasonic CT820, Creative Zen Vision:M, Creative Zen X-Fi (32GB), iAudio X5L, Apple iPod Nano 8GB 2G, Apple iTouch (16gb), Samsung YH-J70SB, Cowon D2, Sony NW-A808, Sony NW-A829, Sansa Clip (4GB), Sansa Fuze (8GB)
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scottiebabie
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scanfiend
Nov 13 2006, 07:52 PM
Scottiebabie, dude! A most entertaining and informative review! Your sense of humour surely showed (who would've thunk? Considering your earlier postings of SMS type speak - I was worried there for a while :D )

Indeed, I had the pleasure of listening to your 'cans, prior to being brought back to KL - all in the interests of furthering my audio horizons, mind you, and to help in the burning in :lol: . In the limited time I auditioned them, my impressions were the same as yours: amazingly transparent and neutral.

Do post more often, I enjoy your writing :P

p.s. what's with the dogma in your avatar? The only dogma I know of is a Japanese Vid Company that produces....erm...."stimulating" films. lol

glad u like dude! ya..have to admit that u are not the only to complain about my ...ahem..butchering of written english. sometimes..even old dogs like me learn new tricks :rolleyes: .

erm..is there anyone over yourside of the causeway that hasnt listened to MY woodies before me!! hehe! no worries bud, juz kidding. i got no problems at all as long as ..ahem..u didnt spray any funky creamy stuff all over it and then tell me its only "woodpolish" :P :lol:

seriously though, what u listened to is not anywhere close to what the W5k is now. i remember jotting down and chatting with tops.. about the W5k sounding 'thin' and not bass oriented, etc.. but that was 3weeks ago.

u should listen to it now! kabaang! kaboom! kapow! hehe :bruce:

what i am intrigued with is how the DIVA by TSLIM would synergize with the W5k. argggh....so many toyz so little mullah!

ps: O didnt u know, i do recruiting for DOGMA. u interested in becoming a "star"??? hahaha! just playing dude :thumbup: :band:
In music the passions enjoy themselves.- NIETZSCHE

"If you are sissy girl you can't adapt when something dangerous happens. But if you are extreme it's like another day at the office. In the long-term it's safer to live extreme than live like sissy girl.
If you are extreme and start relaxing, that's when the problems start. If you are a skydiver you eventually forget to bring your parachute" - PATRICK82
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ahdui
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aux!
decent review but if you go deeper into more details, it will be superb :)
Transportable: iRiver h120(2300mAh)→Sysconcept Optical Cable→AOS Electornics Co. Piccolo DAC→ahdui's CryoFreeze™ TCu IC→ahdui's Enfo PA-1→Custom Shure SE530
Backup: AMB y-1 DAC (MisterX Mod)


Cycling: Sansa Clip 4GB→Philips SHS3200 Earhooks
Portable: Rio Karma→UltimateEars Super.Fi 5eb
Backup Rig: RedWineAudio 40GB iPod Photo→ahdui's CryoFreeze™ RBT IC→iBasso P3 Heron(ahdui Mod) →Custom Shure SE530
Home: "Upgrading In Progress"→Alessandro MS Pro/JVC HP-DX1000
Desktop: PC→Belden 1505F→CityPulse DAC 7.2x II→Belden 89207→KRK Rokit Powered 5



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scottiebabie
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ahdui
Nov 13 2006, 11:19 PM
decent review but if you go deeper into more details, it will be superb :)

brother ahdui...u do realize i totally like...blew my load in this review!

thats about the extent of my audio knowledge. some of the terms i used, i only just discovered the meaning. i only wrote this coz some yahoo (from a local msian forum) started dumping on AT cans once he knew i bought something that he didnt like or he didnt want any1else to have. i know next to zero on how to write and describe headfi or hifi for that matter. its actually much harder than i thought :rolleyes: :doh:

writing and describing technical info is easy. writing about music and how it is protrayed, with any semblance of intelligence is not:bash:! i was racking my brain over, insideout, outsidein to come up with terms to express what i heard with the limited knowledge that i have.

however as in all things, i shall learn and endeavour to do better and comeup with the BOMB in my future efforts :k701smile:

in the immortal words of BILL & TED, "PARTY ON DUDE!"
In music the passions enjoy themselves.- NIETZSCHE

"If you are sissy girl you can't adapt when something dangerous happens. But if you are extreme it's like another day at the office. In the long-term it's safer to live extreme than live like sissy girl.
If you are extreme and start relaxing, that's when the problems start. If you are a skydiver you eventually forget to bring your parachute" - PATRICK82
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ahdui
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aux!
lol dont worry, im not saying that your reviews are bad, its great.

but there is still room of improvement. :)
Transportable: iRiver h120(2300mAh)→Sysconcept Optical Cable→AOS Electornics Co. Piccolo DAC→ahdui's CryoFreeze™ TCu IC→ahdui's Enfo PA-1→Custom Shure SE530
Backup: AMB y-1 DAC (MisterX Mod)


Cycling: Sansa Clip 4GB→Philips SHS3200 Earhooks
Portable: Rio Karma→UltimateEars Super.Fi 5eb
Backup Rig: RedWineAudio 40GB iPod Photo→ahdui's CryoFreeze™ RBT IC→iBasso P3 Heron(ahdui Mod) →Custom Shure SE530
Home: "Upgrading In Progress"→Alessandro MS Pro/JVC HP-DX1000
Desktop: PC→Belden 1505F→CityPulse DAC 7.2x II→Belden 89207→KRK Rokit Powered 5



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yeah_guyz
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come and support my brother scottie :HD600smile:
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cmk
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The Audio Geek
Great review! Comprehensive. As a suggestion, maybe after each music comparo, you could vote either can the winner. Another possible suggestion is a ranking, you know, # of ***** to indicate your preference.

Mods: this should be in the review section or a link placed to this thread.
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[size=3]New king of the hill = Diva + ATHW100/Beyer DT990![/size]
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
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aaron-xp
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Great review. Real readable. :D

I guess this is the next best thing to owning the headphones.
team Lover, You Should've Come Over
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scottiebabie
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cmk
Nov 14 2006, 08:50 AM
Great review!  Comprehensive.  As a suggestion, maybe after each music comparo, you could vote either can the winner.  Another possible suggestion is a ranking, you know, # of ***** to indicate your preference.

Mods: this should be in the review section or a link placed to this thread.

1stly, thxs guyz for all your kind words. as i mentioned in the disclaimer, not only am i a real headfi noobie, this is my very 1st audio write of any note. i've never had much issues with the written word when its in my sphere of knowledge but...this audio headfi thingy...not as simple as i thought. as im starting to discover, music is mostly art and scottie has never been an artsie fartsie sort :blush: . my interests has always been with the pursuit of speed and the pursuit of ..ahem..certain felines with great curves :naughty:

back on a headfi note, bra CMK, any chance i can have a serious audition with the lovely DIVA in your possession? besides the love of anything named DIVA, i would love to investigate how the lovely DIVA would synergize with my W5k since it does so well with your W100. as u know (duh!!!), im in the market for a companion for my WOODIE :lol: :peace:
In music the passions enjoy themselves.- NIETZSCHE

"If you are sissy girl you can't adapt when something dangerous happens. But if you are extreme it's like another day at the office. In the long-term it's safer to live extreme than live like sissy girl.
If you are extreme and start relaxing, that's when the problems start. If you are a skydiver you eventually forget to bring your parachute" - PATRICK82
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cmk
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Of course something can be arranged. When will you be in Singapore?
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[size=3]New king of the hill = Diva + ATHW100/Beyer DT990![/size]
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
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scottiebabie
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cmk
Nov 14 2006, 05:03 PM
Of course something can be arranged. When will you be in Singapore?

bradder CMK U THE MAN! will check into me schedule and defnatly hike across the causeway to meetup with my silyporeans buddies.

while i have u in this generous and giving mood, bradder CMK it would surely spice up and hasten my visit to your lovely island if u can also arrange ..ahem...some feline companions. scottie aint greedy, just 2 purrrrrrrin at me will do just fine.

promise u'l work on it and i promise i'l workon gettin your...ahem... scrrrrrratch when u take a jaunt up these backwater parts. :P
In music the passions enjoy themselves.- NIETZSCHE

"If you are sissy girl you can't adapt when something dangerous happens. But if you are extreme it's like another day at the office. In the long-term it's safer to live extreme than live like sissy girl.
If you are extreme and start relaxing, that's when the problems start. If you are a skydiver you eventually forget to bring your parachute" - PATRICK82
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razer
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banned + locked
Well written. Saves me the hassle of auditioning the W5000's I guess. From what you've described, I do not think that it would be a smart buy for me as i think the AD2000 and L3000 both provides what the W5000 seemed to provide or maybe more...
Headphones/Earphones:

ATH-L3000, ATH-AD2000, SA-5000, HD650, K701, HF-1, E5C, ES-7, GS-1000, Stax Omega 2, ESW9

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