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| Rules is Rules | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 19 2012, 08:17 AM (267 Views) | |
| Lord Tau | Nov 19 2012, 08:17 AM Post #1 |
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So recently the top two teams have been using loopholes in the rules to their advantage. But with the championship(s) at stake, teams are going to resort to finding any loophole they can to gain an advantage. Now this may be difficult to hear, but it needs saying: Red Bull, Ferrari, even McLaren are all as bad as each other when it comes to this. At the Abu Dhabi GP, Vettel was rightfully sent to the back of the grid. After all, he did what Hamilton did back in Spain and duly recieved the same punishment. However, Red Bull decided to start Vettel from the pit lane so they could work on his car. Not just here, but on many forums elsewhere, Red Bull, Horner and Vettel were denounced as sneaky bastards gaining an unfair advantage. But, it was within the rules. Any car can have work done to it, but they must start from the pit lane. You can't say that "because Vettel had a penalty he shouldn't take advantage". Well, what if Vettel had a genuine problem that forced him to start from the pit lane? You can't have one rule for one person/scenario and another for another. The fact that Vettel managed to benefit from the safety cars in Abu Dhabi probably didn't help the Red Bull detractors much. Fast forward to Austin, and Ferrari elect to send Massa back five spaces on the grid, benefitting Alonso. Nowhere I've read so far (and to be honest, I haven't read around as much yet) denounced the Ferrari gang for being devious in the same way that Red Bull were denounced at Abu Dhabi, but when you look at it, is there much of a difference between what Red Bull did and what Ferrari did? But irrespective of this, like Red Bull in Abu Dhabi, what Ferrari did was again within the rules. Suppose Massa had a genuine gearbox problem? Again, you can't regulate for one instance and then change your mind when it suits you. Now, look back at the German GP. Hamilton was able to use his DRS to unlap himself, which frustrated a lot of people. But why? Again, it was within the rules. An HRT has as much right to use it's DRS to unlap itself as a McLaren, although it is nowhere near as likely to happen. I know it's frustrating when a team uses sneaky, devious methods to gain an advantage, but if it's within the rules, it's allowed. I have a problem when teams/drivers do things that are outside of the rules or are in a legal grey area and get away with it. The "Fernando is faster than you" incident is a good example. Team orders were prohibited at the time. That was not within the rules. Anyway, rant over. |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Nov 19 2012, 12:31 PM Post #2 |
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I think the difference between what RBR and Ferrari did at least was RBR were caught cheating and turned a punishment into something else. IMO the rules should be tweaked to prevent that from happening, the pitlane changes that is unless of course they genuinely have a problem Of course it's an administrative nightmare. Ferrari weren't cheating. They used a known rule to gain Alonso a place and have admitted as such. In fact they were open about it up front. They weren't underhandedly trying to gain some sneaky advantage and then pretend they didn't do anything wrong. |
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| John | Nov 19 2012, 01:13 PM Post #3 |
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Team Boss
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The double standard was not unnoticed but no use in holding up a mirror as the offenders are blind to it. But it is not even simply using the rules... Alonso had already made up one place (even before Massa's demotion) due to another's penalty. Nothing unusual in this, it happens frequently. Yet had this been Vettel to benifit a move up the grid every man and his dog would be decrying how lucky Vettel was. As you say LT, ALL teams will use ALL the rules to gain any advantage they can (Silverstone'98 being a case in point...) It is just something that has been done since the dawn of motorsport....<thumbsup> |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Nov 19 2012, 01:42 PM Post #4 |
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I wasn't happy about how RBR were able to modify Vettel's car to negate a large part of the penalty but I do accept that RBR did nothing wrong in that case, it's not even a loophole, however, for most cars, especially one like the RBR there is little difference between starting at the back or in the pitlane. At least you know you're not going to get caught up in the first corner carnage |
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| Lord Tau | Nov 19 2012, 01:44 PM Post #5 |
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True, but by demoting Massa, they also moved Hulkenberg and Senna to the dirty side of the track as well, thus compromising their start, through no fault of their own. And I never said they were cheating in my original post. Cheating would have been doing something outside of the rules. |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Nov 19 2012, 01:57 PM Post #6 |
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No I didn't say you implied they were cheating, as I don't think so either. Both RBR and Ferrari used a known rule to their advantage, but RBR used the pitlane rule to help them out from having been caught cheating. It's true about the dirty side of the track, many drivers throughout the race found the inside line at turn one very slow. So from an attack or defence point of view, especially at the start, it was not the place to be. |
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| John | Nov 19 2012, 02:07 PM Post #7 |
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I don't believe any team effected by either Grossjean or Massa's gearbox penalty have voiced any concerns because of their drivers eventual starting position. Modern racing introduced this 5 place penalty and so it is the same for everyone so they just accept it and go racing... Those elevated to start on the 'dirty' side are already starting one place higher than they qualified so have already gaind an advantage of sorts. |
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| Norbert | Nov 19 2012, 06:20 PM Post #8 |
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At least Ferrari didn't lie about what they were doing.... I don't believe that any car demoted to the rear of the grid should be allowed to be modified outside of Parc Ferme. Flexi-Bull claimed they took the car from Parc Ferme to 'find' the fuel that was never there, and took advantage to modify the car for better overtaking. This simply should not be allowed. The car was penalised, and was starting last, so effectively there was no penalty for taking the car from Parc Ferme and modifying it, at which point it must start from the pit lane. That also means it doesn't take the sighting lap and saves a lap of fuel and tyre wear.... This modification effectively negated the whole penalty, especially when combined with a convenient safety car or two. The rule should be modified so that an excluded car cannot be modified post qualifying whatsoever, or at the very least unless it takes a time penalty on the overall race time, which would also mean that a safety car could not negate the penalty, However, I don't believe that deliberately breaking the seal on Massa's gearbox in order to shuffle the grid is right, either. At least it was done with honesty, something Mr Horner cannot be accused of succumbing to very often. I wonder what he would have said had they not taken advantage of the rulebook in the previous race? Probably nothing as diplomatic as he was in the event. Of course, Ferrari could have claimed there was an issue, and we'd be none the wiser, however we would certainly find it rather coincidental that both their cars moved from the dirtier to the cleaner side. As usual, the sloppy rulebook has been driven over, reversed back across, then thrown into the nearest bin! |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Nov 19 2012, 08:35 PM Post #9 |
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I don't think you can count starting at the back or from the pitlane as not being a disadvantage. |
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| John | Nov 19 2012, 08:47 PM Post #10 |
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100% agree but only if the rules say they can't... as it happens they can so I've no problem with it. It would seem the only contentious element is not the rules themselves but rather if it is a team you like or dislike...
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| John | Nov 19 2012, 09:02 PM Post #11 |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Nov 19 2012, 11:47 PM Post #12 |
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| Norbert | Nov 20 2012, 12:28 PM Post #13 |
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Not on it's own no. However the point I am trying to make is that being made to start last by a penalty was a penalty. Being made to start from the pit lane instead of your qualified grid position is a penalty. BUT, moving from the back of the grid to the pit lane is little penalty in itself . After all, it's not unknown for teams qualifying hugely out of position to pull their cars from Parc Ferme and take ADVANTAGE of being able to alter the setup to suit being in traffic. I wonder how well an unmodified from quali Red Bull would have done in Seb's hands during that race? Even with the safety car to bunch the field up, I suspect he'd only have achieved a minor points place. The difference between that and third where he ended up might decide the title in his favour, and that's simply unfair. As it deliberately breaking gearbox seals to deliberately shuffle the grid, I will add. Rules is rules, and F1's are crap a lot of the time. |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Nov 20 2012, 01:57 PM Post #14 |
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true |
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