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Terrorists to be extradited
Topic Started: Oct 5 2012, 04:29 PM (1,262 Views)
pedal power
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forgot about that <doh>
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Pasta
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Quote:
 
No, but they also all eat pasta  <whistle> 


I didn't mean this to go down this path or to offend. So far I have not insulted anyone in particular. Nor have I been snide. I have tried to be analytical.

In that respect I might have been singularly unique.

No but they all eat pasta - whistle. Not at all brilliant.

If anyone wants to debate, then do so, but do so seriously.

As I said I am somewhat spiritual myself. I do, however, ask all to prove their beliefs/tenets.

Let me once again explain my position so that we don't all just react and get pissed at Pasta.

I am not criticizing faith. Not at all. As long as it is honest and thoughtful.

Don't be defensive. More than 30% of the world believes that religion is nonsense. Of the balance that are religious, many of them have their doubts about the decrees of their religions. As Steel said, if all Catholics adhered to the rules of the Catholic church there would be many more children in the world today.

So even religious people have doubts and limits. So why not deal with it directly and openly?

The key thing is to define what are legitimate components of religion and what are the authorities.

And let there be no mistake - we should all be able to question and criticize religion without fear of retribution.

What is religion? I always thought it was a belief in a deity that was spiritual. In contrast there are traditions and rituals.

What is God's will and who says so?

I am going to cut to the quick. God never wrote a bible. Neither did Jesus nor Muhammed. The books were written by followers and hangers on. There can be no dispute of that.

Beyond the books, there are interpretations and decrees. Modesty of a woman for example. Birth control. Social rules such as stoning as a punishment.

These are all interpretations of men and they are not valid religious rules, and yet they have been incorporated as part of a religion, and that is nonsense.

Pork, beef, alcohol, divorce, etc. I have written about that all before, but it seems no one has thought about it. For sure no one has thoughtfully commented about it.

There is a difference between a religious leader making recommendations and the word of God. God didn't say we should have taboos.

There were and are reasons for these recommendations. Again I have discoursed on this many times and would request you actually consider my arguments.

Sikhs say it is their religion to carry knives and wear those silly head scarves with silly long hair and grow beards.

All of that is not religion. None of it is valid religion.

It is tradition and superstition and all of it is abused and causes so much harm to humanity.

Eating wafer slices in mass is symbolic only. Drinking the wine is the same. It is not part of the core of the religion. It is a rite and in that respect no different than voodoo sticking of pins in a doll. Carrying a knife has nothing to do with religion - it is a tribal warrior practice the purpose of which became redundant a century ago.

Jesus said to not look for him in (churches or monuments). Break a stone and I am there.

It is the basic messages we should look to. Common sense stuff, actually.

I believe there is something to this religion and deity. I believe that science will lead to better understanding.

I believe it is completely counter productive to rely on the words written by men 2000 years ago without considering the limitations of understanding they had at the time.

And finally, my premise, bad men abuse organized religion for their own selfish purposes. And this has happend over the millenium. And there can be no effective denial of this.

I didn't mean to offend people of charity or good faith. Don't, in turn, castigate me for having an inquiring mind.

Cheers.

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Pasta
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Just to say one more thing about my philosophy here.

The extremists of any religion - and extremists and users exist in all religions - can only exist because of one thing. Their flock react violently or forcefully to criticisms from without, but do not look critically within - or currently might be afraid to look critically within.

Why must people take offense to a person like me for stating my mind, but not take issue with those within who are the real causes of the problems. I am not a Catholic or Muslim so my criticisms are circumspect. Only those within can say anything, but they don't. They rationalize.

The flock is equally guilty.
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pedal power
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from what i know of the Muslim faith, whats is written in the Koran regarding women is quiet detailed and respectful. The only problem is that the Koran teaches tolerance, understanding of others, but the guys who are preaching it don't follow it all as written, only an extreme interpretations of the teachings.

i remember my GP once telling me a story when he when he first started on hospital wards, that an elderly gentleman from pakistan who came in with his daughter, i think she was in her late teens, and the father got angry that a male was going to examine his daughter. the doctor said its no good shouting and getting angry at me, the fault lies with you entirely, i'm of a hindu faith and my family encourage me and all my brothers and sisters to laern as much as we could. wheresas your community shuns teaching girls, you get them married once they kleave school, you dont let them carry on ith their studies.

Now if someone in your community had let their daughter carry on with their studies and go on to higher education, they might have been a nurse or docotr and could have examined your daughter today.

Then the old man realised it was wrong to stop girls learning and from that day on he encouraged girls to be educated if they so desired.

A lot has changed since those early times and i feel a lot more needs to be done.


I am of an inquistive and open mind and question all religions, no one religion has all the answers, and lke you say most of its is tradition that has been adopted by various religions rather than teachings.

A Jewish friend was telling me that its in his religion to keep a beard as is of the Muslim faith. I countered it might well be but another explanation was during those early centuries of both religion sun and fire worship was quiet open. One of the consequence of fire worship was if you had a beard it could get caught on fire hence being clean shaven. Thus keeping a beards was a sign of a person not worship fire for religious reasons and hence it was taken up by the various religions to show a person being devout of that religion.


in the christian faith, there are a lot of festival who's history is that they where pagan religious days and were adopted into Christianity.

All saint day, Halloween, are both pagan religion days, celebrating the end and beginning of their new year. Halloween then was know as hallows eve, and pagans believe that spirit who passed away in that year could come back on that day.

I always urge anyone to find out why they do a particular things in their religion rather then just following it in a parrot fashion.


religion as far as i as concerned should be challenged and question, that does not mean someone is being disrespectful.

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Norbert
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Pasta,Oct 9 2012
05:07 PM
I didn't mean this to go down this path or to offend. So far I have not insulted anyone in particular. Nor have I been snide. I have tried to be analytical.

That's funny, because I swear in an earlier post you picked on several very important parts of various faiths, and said that only an idiot would believe in or do such things....
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Pasta
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Norbert,Oct 10 2012
12:28 PM
Pasta,Oct 9 2012
05:07 PM
I didn't mean this to go down this path or to offend.  So far I have not insulted , in anyone in particular.  Nor have I been snide.  I have tried to be analytical.

That's funny, because I swear in an earlier post you picked on several very important parts of various faiths, and said that only an idiot would believe in or do such things....

First Pedal seems to get my point. Finally someone.

Now Norbert - and all funny aside - żou will note from your quote I didn't single out anyone.

Let me ask you: Do you think it is reasonable to interpret anything in the respect for a deity to include the need to not eat beef but ok to eat pork, or to not eat pork but to be able to eat beef, or to need to grow a beard or carry a knife or a gun or whatever?

I am not sure if you just want to select one tidbit out of an essay to show your "cleverness", but as I said if you want a serious debate then be serious.

Those bits I picked upon should not be considered parts of faiths. The fact that you didn't pick up on that should be of concern to your loved ones. Please seek professional help.

As I have described before, if you look at the origins of those bits, you will or at least should understand that they have nothing to do with the religions in question.

When I think of the teachings of Christ, for example, and how that has been warped by mankind, I cannot help but think that so much of current day religion is disrespectful to the founders/germinators of those faiths. Hindu, Christianity, Islam.

If you take offense at what I say, then I suggest you look closely at your beliefs. You might be far more disrespectful to your own faith than I could ever be.

And frankly anyone who believes that this pork/beef/beard/hat/turban/knives/ scarves/condom etc. stuff is part of their religion is, in fact, an idiot. Particularly if they have been given the opportunity to learn their origins and how these rules have been manufactured by religious bureaucrats.
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Pasta
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By the way Pedal - an excellent story about the doctor. I will be using that if it is ok with you. Not sure if it was true, but it hits the nail on the head.
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pedal power
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its true the story about the doctor.

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Norbert
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Firstly, I do not require professional help. Secondly, I understand what you are trying to say about a particular belief not REQUIRING or TEACHING that certain clothing must be worn, certain practices followed in dress and appearance, and certain restrictions on diet.

However, if you are a believer or supporter of something, it is often the case that a group of like minded individuals will show their support for something in a manner that identifies that they do so. Certain people will not eat certain meats. Certain people will wear certain clothes and accessories like Turbans, ceremonial knives, kilts, skullcaps, etc. As is obvious, I am a supporter of Vulcan XH558, and I show my support in many ways, none of which are a requirement of the Vulcan To The Sky Trust, nor the supporter's club.

Suggesting that someone who does something to show their belief or support of a cause is an idiot just because what they are doing is not a requirement appears at best very narrow minded.

If someone who is religious wears a turban or skullcap to show their support for their religion, so what? Are people who donate to the Royal British Legion idiots for wearing poppies? Am I an idiot for wearing an XH558 fleece and baseball cap?

I agree that it's quite likely that such things are intepretations of a belief or a religion, but just because people choose to do so doesn't make them stupid.
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Lord Tau
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Norbert,Oct 11 2012
11:04 AM
However, if you are a believer or supporter of something, it is often the case that a group of like minded individuals will show their support for something in a manner that identifies that they do so.

For instance, sports fans in their team colours.
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Norbert
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Lord Tau,Oct 11 2012
01:45 PM
Norbert,Oct 11 2012
11:04 AM
However, if you are a believer or supporter of something, it is often the case that a group of like minded individuals will show their support for something in a manner that identifies that they do so.

For instance, sports fans in their team colours.

Yup, you're clearly an idiot for wearing your team's shirt, as they never told you you had to... lol
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Pasta
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LOL - why don't we use "hahaha" which is more indicative of something really funny.

I must apologize to Norbert. I used offensive language and there is no excuse for that. Mind you I don't like people being sarcastic and I wonder if there is any notion that a return of breaking the bread might be appropriate.

I think you, Norbert, and LT are not quite getting the point. And frankly I know both of you to be too intelligent.

If you say you want to show support for a cult/religion/group of people/hockey team by wearing red or orange or growing beards or whatever, then do so.

To say, however, it is a legitimate component of a religion is not true. Support your team, fine. Join the gang, fine. Feel part of a group, fine.

I understand that traditions are valuable things and give us comfort and security in our lives. The problem is when they are considered components of religion they become mandatory, not voluntary, and they can be manipulated by religious bureaucrats, including fanatics and otherwise warped individuals.

Learn your histories mates before you comment as you have. Where do these traditions/rites/superstitions/rules come from?

Learn the history. I bet neither you Norbert nor LT know it. And you still try to be glib and have not commented upon my arguments in any valid or intelligent way. This is every bit as disrespectful, if not more, than me saying "seek professional help".

Support and belonging to a group - wearing colors. OK. I have club memberships and I know some school songs and such. But that stuff is not a valid component of religion.

Here is where it is important. Relgions have people of extreme authority who are represented as the authoritative voices of GOD. When you tell me I must have my women covered in tents or have their faces covered because that is essentially GOD's will, you are an idiot and/or a liar. There is no authoritative basis for that statement.

If you tell me that GOD's will is you can eat beef but not pork in some places but it is also GOD's will that you can eat pork but not beef in others - you are an idiot and/or a liar. I am leaning to the idiot because clearly there is an inconsistency between the two and no one is bothering to figure out why.

I have told you the origins of both but I guess you guys forgot.

Telling women they are subjugated to men as nothing more than breeders of the species and they can't be educated is, in your arguments, justified religiously. Join the men's team. Wear the team colors.

Relgion is all about rules and control and interpretations by MEN. Not a god or a prophet or the son of God. The volumes of interpretations and such over the centuries is mind boggling but to the best of my knowledge in all these centuries God hasn't bothered to ring anyone up. So how can recent rituals and habits and clothing and so forth possibly be the will of God?

They are not. Full stop. And they are being used to contradict what God has given us. Evolution, the ability to progress and think for oneself, to learn, to improve.



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Pasta
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And Norbert - I do get your point. To some extent what is the problem if people equate harmless dietary issues, as an example, to their religion.

What is the big deal? Why am I making such a fuss?

I think you are too weak on this. You think diet is no big deal, and yet a group of Muslims buy some property next to a pig farmer in Texas, and insist he moves his farm.

If we don't agree on the definition of what are the basic components of a valid religion (and as such give them exemption from taxes, secular rules, criticism and so forth), then religion will continue to be abused by some pretty bad people.

Religion is contradictory to democracy and freedom - particularly as religion has been practiced for more than a thousand years.

Remember I am saying this as one who believes in a deity/superior entity and Jesus in particular as a very spiritual man.

Cheers mate
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ELUSIVEJIM
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<huh>
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Norbert
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So, you are a Christian then? That would explain your intolerance of any other religious groups and practices of their followers....

<roflmao>
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