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Autosports sour grapes?
Topic Started: Jul 15 2011, 04:50 AM (1,161 Views)
Brave_Lee_Flea
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Rob,Jul 19 2011
04:52 PM
Beats McLaren's willing to win through blatant cheating.

You can't beat me with that stick; I detest McLaren.

Not only have they been caught with their allegorical trousers around their metaphorical ankles in the cheating stakes but (imo) they are probably the team whose fondness of winning through political chicanery is second only to Ferrari ...

Going back to Ferrari; I believe that Ferrari's desire to play politics started right at the very beginning with old man Enzo himself, who would refuse even to bring his team to races unless the setup - and of course the money - suited him.

No, in truth the only stick you can effectively beat me with is that timeless classic "Well at least we're not as crap as Williams" retort against which I admit to being utterly defenceless.

Temporarily.

Give or take the odd 20 years.

I can wait.
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John
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<think> And the fact they have hired an undesirable...
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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John,Jul 19 2011
07:47 PM
<think> And the fact they have hired an undesirable...

I believe in rehabilitation.

Your thrust is repulsed by my armour of self-righteousness.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Who exactly was guilty of cheating at Mclaren. Everyone? Or just those accused and convicted. Let's see, recent time convicted offenders from Mclaren and Renault are now working where? One at Williams and the other at Ferrari.

No teams especially Mclaren and Ferrari are above doing what they need to get what they want if it means cheating and getting away with it despite later getting caught.

Oh yeah and the irony oh the irony being that Alonso was invovled in BOTH and yet there he is, playing the lord at Ferrari greasing the wheels with the unmelted butter in his mouth.

It's human nature to cheat.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 20 2011
03:18 PM
It's human nature to cheat.

Not mine.

Furthermore until others are proven to be cheating it is the right thing to do to assume they are not. Innocent until proven guilty.

Competition within rules and guidelines is the very essence of sport. If you assume everybody is cheating there can be no sporting competition.

If you'll forgive me for saying so, and I don't mean this nastily, I suspect your attitude towards cheating says more about your own nature than that of humans generally.
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Rob
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Brave_Lee_Flea,Jul 19 2011
01:35 PM
Rob,Jul 19 2011
04:52 PM
Beats McLaren's willing to win through blatant cheating.

You can't beat me with that stick; I detest McLaren.

It was more of a snide remark in general. Not aimed at you specifically.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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rofl

Don't worry, I hadn't taken offence, was just playing
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Brave_Lee_Flea,Jul 20 2011
07:48 PM
TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 20 2011
03:18 PM
It's human nature to cheat.

Not mine

......

If you'll forgive me for saying so, and I don't mean this nastily, I suspect your attitude towards cheating says more about your own nature than that of humans generally.

I'm not a cheat, my comment comes from seeing others cheat and gain, from bent CVs to Michael Schumacher, from Politicians to University Professors.

Altruism and fair play are not intuitive or inherent. Given an opportunity to better themselves a person may well do the intuitive automatic thing such as Maradonna and his hand of 'god' or Suarez and his goal line hand ball which effectively robbed Cameroon (?) of an automatic goal. Was that cheating or a human reaction?

When teams 'bend' the rules to try to find an advantage is it creative thinking or cheating?

For me a true athlete or a true winner or a true creative is someone who works within limited criteria and does something genuinely of genius.

So Raikonen or Vettel or Alonso (and probably others) who all made illegal overtaking moves by going well off track to make their overtakes stick and then go on to win the race because of 'creative' advantages gained. They are not winning within the limitations and those instances (alone) are not reflective of true talent.

Are they cheats? To a degree yes, automatic reactive actions.

I know of a couple (here in Uruguay) very genuine nice 'honest' people who you would not normally think of as bad people. Husband had a normal, quite (but not very) well paid job. One day they buy the neighbours house and start extending their own upward and outwards. Then they buy land and start talking about spending 150,000 dollars on buying a gas station. A huge amount of money here. Shortly after, the company he works for goes bankrupt. And he is investigated for taking bribes from the board of directors while they milked the company dry and put 1000 people out of work.

My point is that temptation and opportunity can make cheats of us all. Fundamentally I am not a cheat and I see no value in taking credit for achievements that I did not earn through working within the limitations of the activity.

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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Brave_Lee_Flea,Jul 20 2011
07:48 PM
Furthermore until others are proven to be cheating it is the right thing to do to assume they are not. Innocent until proven guilty.

Seen to be cheating and proven to be cheating are two different things. Everyone saw the Red Bull Wing dip and bend beyond the legal amount yet no one could prove it.

Senna in his brief time racing against MS accused him of cheating. At such an early stage in his career it seemed to be sour grapes, but MS and Benetton did go on to be proven cheats.
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John
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why you watch F1 is quite beyond me...
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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John,Jul 21 2011
02:59 PM
why you watch F1 is quite beyond me...

Me too
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 21 2011
02:51 PM

I'm not a cheat, my comment comes from seeing others cheat and gain, from bent CVs to Michael Schumacher, from Politicians to University Professors.

Altruism and fair play are not intuitive or inherent.

Ok, perhaps I was a bit harsh in my last post - but if you are not a cheat then you must accept that it is not inherent in human nature to do so.

Going off track a bit here, but hopefully still interesting, I think this can be traced all the way back to evolutionary advantage; for the majority it makes sense to work co-operatively in a cohesive society. However the benefits for a small number of individuals who choose to "cheat" the system are massive but that only remains true provided it is a small number of individuals who do so, otherwise that cohesive society breaks down and everybody loses.

I regularly work with the police in the UK and have access to force databases of crimes committed in the UK. It is a simple truth that that a very small percentage of the population are responsible for the vast majority of crime. I don't have the exact figures to hand (although I can probably find them out if you're interested) but if we said that 1% of the population was responsible for 80% of the crime you wouldn't be far wrong.

Thus I believe that human nature is overwhelmingly not to cheat.
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Whity
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But you could argue that it is human nature to push the boundaries to try and gain an advantage, often resulting in clever ways to get round the boundries but stay within the technical rules.
If you are caught doing this it is often interpretated as cheating by those who hadn't seen that particular route for getting an adavantage.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Whity,Jul 22 2011
10:56 AM
But you could argue that it is human nature to push the boundaries to try and gain an advantage, often resulting in clever ways to get round the boundries but stay within the technical rules.
If you are caught doing this it is often interpretated as cheating by those who hadn't seen that particular route for getting an adavantage.

Indeed, I would argue that very thing.

Life is not black and white and there are many shades of grey.

However ....

Making a front wing that appears to obey all the rules and can pass all the tests that the FIA stipulate and yet still offer an advantage is a grey area.

Poring over the blueprints of your main rival's designs is not.
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Rob
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Whity,Jul 22 2011
04:56 AM
But you could argue that it is human nature to push the boundaries to try and gain an advantage, often resulting in clever ways to get round the boundries but stay within the technical rules.
If you are caught doing this it is often interpretated as cheating by those who hadn't seen that particular route for getting an adavantage.

Spot on. <clap>
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