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Webber and Team Orders
Topic Started: Jul 15 2011, 04:35 AM (794 Views)
TheCompleteGuitarist
Driver
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Pasta,Jul 16 2011
07:35 PM
And to make Rob really happy, Ferrari is going to catch them and exceed them at which point we will learn to love the Spanish anthem (new) and remember with fondness yet again that ridiculous ditty called the Italian national anthem.

Just a shame all that development is going wasted on a year in which they cannot possibly win anything. Next year it will the same all over again.
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flood1
Chief Engineer
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Vettel is a better driver than Mark, Mark is the number two and will be treated like it, Vettel is a better "seller" for their energy drink, and he is the preferred driver, but I do not think the team gives Mark inferior equipment. However, he is not expected to beat Vettel.

J.Noble said he thought that Horner's radio transmission should have said this, "Guys, go for it! Hang it out there boys! You can race each other, but I will not tolerate one bit either of you risking yourself or your team-mate. Bring those cars home…"

I was disappointed as a fan. In American racing no team ever tells a driver not to race. The culture is different. Each car has it's own box and crew. Often the sponsorship is different on cars within the same team. No sponsor would tolerate his car being told not to overtake another team car even if it were better for the team overall not to. The drivers, crews, and sponsors are not the same from car to car within the team. If team orders are in play, the public and the sponsors never know of it.

I agree that team orders should be allowed. But, I just wanted to see the two blokes race without interference.

I guess that is an old fashioned concept, and if so, I am guilty.
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John
Team Boss
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That is one point of view but if that were true then bascially you are calling Webber a bare faced liar because he most definitly said post race he did ignore the last minute call to hold station and the reason he did not pass is because he could not get past a defending Vettel... your analogy would also mean that RBR have enough control over Webber to let him have pole positions but still ensure Vettel gets a better start... amazing.

You do however raise a very good comparison to US racing where a team runs two seperate sponsored cars and so promotes inter team rivialary... but I believe F1 rules do not permit such a thing (as B.A.R. found out). It would not fit with the cost cutting philosophy currently in favour in F1 but apart for not wishing to see the cars become the mess of sponsors that we see in Nascar I do like the idea... Are there enough sponsors to cover 24 individual cars though, I guess if a team attracts twice the sponsors they can charge half the rates so maybe.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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If F1 is a team sport then we shouldn't have a drivers title. If it's a driver sport then scrap the team title. They are utlimately in conflict with one another.

In football one player out of team, even if they are key goal scorers win no more than the team. In athletics, a relay event is a team event aculmination of team effort and no one individual athlete gains anymore than the rest even if he/she makes up for the poor performance of the rest of the team.

I don't get it in F1 and I have never been interested in the 'team' element, only in how the individual athletes perform.

In F1 what we have is the excuse of it being a 'team' sport putting focus behind one driver for the sake of the team. They are trying at RBR and we have it at Ferrari.
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PiquetFan
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 17 2011
05:44 PM
If F1 is a team sport then we shouldn't have a drivers title. If it's a driver sport then scrap the team title. They are utlimately in conflict with one another.

You're kidding, of course, about scrapping the driver's title OR the team title. The point is that the fight for the two titles is nuanced, European, not North American?

Every now and again this argument surfaces. It is meaningless to question the team and individual nature of F1. The two titles are what make F1 different from any other form of motor sport. I love it, and I hope it never changes.
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Pasta
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 17 2011
03:44 PM
If F1 is a team sport then we shouldn't have a drivers title. If it's a driver sport then scrap the team title. They are utlimately in conflict with one another.

In football one player out of team, even if they are key goal scorers win no more than the team. In athletics, a relay event is a team event aculmination of team effort and no one individual athlete gains anymore than the rest even if he/she makes up for the poor performance of the rest of the team.

I don't get it in F1 and I have never been interested in the 'team' element, only in how the individual athletes perform.

In F1 what we have is the excuse of it being a 'team' sport putting focus behind one driver for the sake of the team. They are trying at RBR and we have it at Ferrari.

Wrong, erroneous breath.

While a team works together and wins their titles as a team, individuals in all team sports also win awards and earn benefits beyond those of the teams and their members' pro-rata shares in the spoils of team successes.

If all team members were equal, then how come only football quarterbacks get their pictures on cereal boxes? And get paid for it! Even if they don't like the coco whatever is in the box.

How come some footballers (as in soccer) get really hot wives and goaltenders never do (Do goaltenders even have wives at all? Never heard of it myself and just thinking maybe because goalies catch but don't shoot - silly musings I am aware).

As much as teams only win with - what is the phrase??? - yes team work - you never see kids buying things because the team says so, but rather an individual.

MVP awards are given to individuals (and as I am painfully aware such award was not given to a Canuck - ever) from teams, and those MVPs make a ton more money than the team filler players.

One thing, I appreciate your ongoing contribution to this forum and as such you are a member of the team here. See how we are going full circle and back to your premise, which includes "I don't get it in F1..." Relating to that, if I recall you were in the past successful in getting IT in your mini when you were younger. So you got some in a mini, but you don't get IT in F1.

That's ok. As long as you get some somewhere, you can still wear a silly grin.

The point is that perhaps in F1 you win by participating in a winning forum even though you personally don't get your picture on that figurative cereal box, no matter how much you post. But some, like say Rob, get more for less.

No offense intended TCG. You left that barn door open and I happened to be sitting on a tractor. Cheers.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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No I'm not wrong but have no time to write a lengthy retort. In brief all the achievements indivuals who play in teams attain are not the reason for being in the sport.

The drivers title is the ultimate achievement a driver can recieve IN THE SPORT. Comparing that to a soccer play having a hot wife or a quarter back being on a cereal box is not the same.

Individual athletes in an olympic event receive accreditation for their efforts. Last year while RBR were constructors champs there is no trophy in webbers home to that effect. Just some documentation in the records that Webber was part of a team that won. Infact it's even worse for him, he's now considered unworthy by the team and many critics.

Even individual members in a relay event or a soccer team recieve a medal for winning a title or a cup but again as part of a winning team does Webber recieve anything? I'm guessing not.

Soccer players may recieve accolade for being top scorer or player of the year, but these are secondary to the team efforts and while they may further the individuals career most of the time the ultimate achievement is the teams win and not what individuals achieve (most of the time). although it could be argued that certain individual achievements can brng to greatness certain characters such as Beckham.

You should also consider that being top scorer relies on being in a team that can put you in that position, winning player of the year is not something that you can necessarily achieve through direct effort or skill.

Just some of my thoughts on the subject. So I will argue that having both titles seems contradictory.

Off the top of your head without doing any research whatsoever, who won the team title when Fangio won his titles or when clark or hill won? Did the team title even exist back then? Did Fangio need a Barichello or a Massa to move over to let him win or act as a buffer between the competition? I'm guessing not.
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John
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I am reminded of the adage that it is better to say nothing and let people think you know nothing than speak and have it confirmed...

<devil>
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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John,Jul 17 2011
10:26 PM
I am reminded of the adage that it is better to say nothing and let people think you know nothing than speak and have it confirmed... 

<devil>

They are opinions not facts.

How do your comments contribute to the discussion?

Or were you referring to not knowing the question regarding the team titles?
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formu...rs%27_Champions

Started in 58, right at the end of Fangio's career.
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Whity
Refueller
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 17 2011
09:38 PM


Off the top of your head without doing any research whatsoever, who won the team title when Fangio won his titles or when clark or hill won? Did the team title even exist back then? Did Fangio need a Barichello or a Massa to move over to let him win or act as a buffer between the competition? I'm guessing not.

In 1956 Fangio's Ferrari team required his team mates to surrender their cars DURING THE RACE when Fangio had technical issues to help ensure that Fangio won the title.
Firstly Luigi Musso handed over his car to allow Fangio to win a race. Then in the final race Musso was ordered to hand over his car again (and refused much like Webber) so Collins who still had a chance of the title himself surrendered his car.

That sounds a lot like team orders to me!
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John
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<think> From the irrefutable source that is Wiki...

Quote:
 
In 1956 Fangio moved to Ferrari, replacing Ascari, who had been killed in an accident, to win his fourth title. Enzo Ferrari and Fangio did not have a very warm relationship, despite their shared success. Fangio took over his team-mate's cars after his suffered mechanical problems in three races, the Argentine, Monaco and Italian Grands Prix. In each case the points were shared between the two drivers. At the season-ending Italian Grand Prix, Fangio's Ferrari team mate Peter Collins, who was in a position to win the World Championship with just 15 laps to go, handed over his car to Fangio. They shared the six points won for second place, giving Fangio the World title.


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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Whity,Jul 18 2011
08:04 AM
TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 17 2011
09:38 PM


Off the top of your head without doing any research whatsoever, who won the team title when Fangio won his titles or when clark or hill won? Did the team title even exist back then? Did Fangio need a Barichello or a Massa to move over to let him win or act as a buffer between the competition? I'm guessing not.

In 1956 Fangio's Ferrari team required his team mates to surrender their cars DURING THE RACE when Fangio had technical issues to help ensure that Fangio won the title.
Firstly Luigi Musso handed over his car to allow Fangio to win a race. Then in the final race Musso was ordered to hand over his car again (and refused much like Webber) so Collins who still had a chance of the title himself surrendered his car.

That sounds a lot like team orders to me!

I think context might be useful. If Musso had a chance to win the title he might have been justified in refusing. If he did not, then he was being a bit stupid.

But yes, sounds a bit messy really.
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H16 BRM
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 16 2011
10:13 PM
Pasta,Jul 16 2011
07:35 PM
And to make Rob really happy, Ferrari is going to catch them and exceed them at which point we will learn to love the Spanish anthem (new) and remember with fondness yet again that ridiculous ditty called the Italian national anthem.


Is that the little ditty whose lyrics are:-

"We won again,
We won again,
We won again we won again........."

Ad nausiem

(Words first thought up by Mrs H16 during the Schumaker era).
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Rob
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Admin
It was appropriate. <clap>
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