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Webber and Team Orders
Topic Started: Jul 15 2011, 04:35 AM (793 Views)
flood1
Chief Engineer
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I have been thinking about this issue for a few days, and everyday there seems to be a bit of news from the RBR camp. Webber has admitted that he ignored the orders to hold position and continued to challenge Vettel, Horner has admitted that he was a bit pissed that Webber had done so, but team owner Dietrich Mateschitz has said that Webber will be signed for next year as Mark has no better choice than to continue to drive the best car on the grid and that RBR has no better or faster drivers to replace him.

Sounds like everyone has kissed and made up. Well, I see it a bit differently. I have a little first hand knowledge, and I suspect the Webber/Horner discussion may have centered around Mark's embarrassment at being publicly order to "slow down."

Mark argued that it would seem reasonable to let him "appear" to challenge Vettel, to get very close to him, but not actually pass for position. It would look good to all racing fans, it would allow Webber to maintain his honor as a racer, and it would be as effective as team orders without the embarrassment of having to issue the directive for all the world to see and hear.

Many of us lost respect for Rubens after he yielded his dominant leading position at Austria in 2002, an event that brought the "no team orders" rule into F1 for the first time. We accepted that he was Michael's paid "bitch" and was required to park his car one turn from a victory in order to let Schu win the race.

Webber will not allow himself to be seen as anyone's "bitch." But, he may agree to hold position in circumstances like Silverstone if he is allowed to "appear" as if he is racing. So PLEASE, no obvious team orders that yank his Ozzie balls right out of his driving suit.

Just make an agreement in the paddock to the circumstances that would imply team orders, let Mark appear to race, and do not yank his balls by embarrassing him in front of all of OZ on live television.

Give him some public dignity even though the team has privately decided that he is to play the role of the pretty girl alongside the manly Teutonic Knight.

Webber and Team Orders
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John
Team Boss
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A team needs to know it employs it's drivers and not the other way round... they may have publicly made up but Webber has introduced an element of doubt as to wether he will ever do as he is asked to by this team again.

Some people wrongly believe he was told to hold station because RBR wanted him to finish 3rd (or at least behind Vettel) whereas they actually gave him pole and his best chance to win that GP...In the final laps of the race with Alonso so far ahead the podiums were set they chose to protect a guranteed 2-3 finish against a possible 2-3 finish no more no less.

How foolish would the team/drivers have looked IF they had collided and handed their rivals all those points.

Vettel is ahead not only because he has won 6 races but because he has earned good points when he has not won... Mark needed his points and he was guranteed them by holding station for the last few laps.
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P1
Chief Engineer
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John,Jul 15 2011
08:20 AM
...but Webber has introduced an element of doubt...

I completely agree with you John. Webber started on pole but dropped down shortly after in normal race conditions. He was also given the advantage of pitting first for tyre change, but to no avail. Webber was asked to hold position just for the last couple of laps. He was not asked to yield his position to Vettel, which I consider a major difference.

Regarding the doubt. Did that not start already with his hiding of the shoulder fracture?
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John
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I can see the shoulder thing as being different as he is an athlete and would be prone to injuries and dealing with them, He showed he was determined enough to perform with the injury and as the team secured both championships thay cannot complain... if anything the only person really effected was Mark... would he have been stronger in the second half of the season, only he knows that answer.

I totally see why the team asked him to back off and I don't believe they would pull a Rubens/Massa order on him. I cannot changes other peoples view in this matter but basically if you are a Vettle fan then you are inclined to believe all is 100% equal... if you are not a Vettel fan then you will believe there is blatent favoritism shown by the team to Vettel at Webbers expence... The truth is somewhere in the middle, as it is in every team at the sharp end of the grid.

It is obvious Mark would never accept a yield order and his team know this full well. But he must accept he is in a team and the team will make demands on him (and Vettel) which are in the teams best interest.

All Mark achieved on Sunday was to demonstrate his own paranoia with regards his teams intentions and cause his team embarrasment... He also challanged peoples perceptions that Vettel is ahead of him because the team want it that way... he ignored the order to hold and attacked for the place and Vettel held him off.
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GordonB
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John,Jul 15 2011
08:36 AM
I can see the shoulder thing as being different as he is an athlete and would be prone to injuries and dealing with them, He showed he was determined enough to perform with the injury and as the team secured both championships thay cannot complain... if anything the only person really effected was Mark... would he have been stronger in the second half of the season, only he knows that answer.

...

Well I think the team do have a right to complain - just because Red Bull managed to win both championships doesn't change the fact that his injury increased the risk that they wouldn't win, and because he didn't tell them, they didn't know the risk had increased.

In fact, if they had have known, then maybe they would have been jusified in favouring Vettel even more than they appeared to, and he then would have won more easily and wouldn't have been under threat by Alonso in the last race.

Anyhoo,

I think the point that Flood is trying to make is this:

Given that the subject of team orders was almost bound to occur between Vettel and Webber at some point during the year, why on earth didn't RB have some kind of pre-arrangement (e.g code word, or coded action etc.) that allowed the drivers to appear to race while guaranteeing that they wouldn't hit each other?

Webber's problem with the team order was probably not so much the order itself but the way that RB tried to (or seemed to try to) make him appear to be a complete pussy. His answer was to say that he ignored those orders. Did he really? Only he knows, but it did at least salvage some of his reputation to say that he did.
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Pasta
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Glad at least one person (Gordon) got flood's point.

Teutonic Knight huh. You need to help me write the next Wins missive.
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P1
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GordonB,Jul 15 2011
11:15 AM
Webber's problem with the team order was probably not so much the order itself but the way that RB tried to (or seemed to try to) make him appear to be a complete pussy. His answer was to say that he ignored those orders. Did he really? Only he knows, but it did at least salvage some of his reputation to say that he did.

What reputation?

That he is not doing as told to?
That his team cannot trust him?
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Pasta
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Though I agree with you P-One (and I am not a Webber fan by any stwetch of the wubber Webber is made of) the team has not exactly been sensitive to his self-esteem either.

As a person who has spent most of his working life as a CEO I know that leadership starts at the top, not the middle or bottom. To me RBR is fortunate to have Adrian Newey and lots of money. It also does have two very good drivers. But in terms of its charisma as a team, I am not convinced.

For me they should replace Mark. This festering sore is not going away. He is partly to blame, but I think Christian Horner and the ownership has done at least as much harm.

Next time make it clear the other driver is number 2.
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John
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I would say Webber is the best kind of No.2 for Vettel... one who isn't going to move aside so when he does get beaten it is because he got beaten... for this reason Webber will remain at RBR for 2012.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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There are only two kinds of drivers that will take a drive with RBR.

Either an idiot or someone who believes he can beat Vettel, which might also constitute idiocy if happens to be a driver like ......... add your own choice here.

RBR are lucky to have Webber for the reasons John stated. No one else is likely to want to touch the job if they understand Rubens career.
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John,Jul 16 2011
12:28 PM
I would say Webber is the best kind of No.2 for Vettel... one who isn't going to move aside so when he does get beaten it is because he got beaten... for this reason Webber will remain at RBR for 2012.

No offense John, and Webber may in fact be at RBR next year, but your leap of logic from minimal facts leaves me scratching my still full head of hair.

First at this time Vettel has progressed to the point where he doesn't care who his team mate is. Webber is for whatever reasons not the same man as before, and Vettel is better. But that is a side issue.

RBR will win both titles with a better car with Vettel and a decent number 2 driver. Lots can replace Webber. Webber and the team don't see eye to eye. He has a golden egg here, but still complains (rightfully so, btw) and it is making the team lose credibility (not to mention pointing out Horner's weaknesses).

I think it would be better for Webber to either move into a more development role at another team (and accept he will never win a race again, but take the money and run) or retire. Unless of course he accepts - how did Flood put it - his bitch role? - and stop complaining in public so often.

The team might mature, in which case maybe Mark can stay and be a closet bitch, but so far Christian doesn't seem to get the plot.

I will say this - Christian Horner has the best hair style of any team manager in F1. Wonder if he is gay too. Maybe Nico knows but then I am reminded - only his hairdresser knows for sure.

If Webber stays at RBR into 2012 it will not, IMHO not be because he is the best kind of no. 2 driver. Eddie Irvine and Massa were way better at that.
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 16 2011
07:12 PM
There are only two kinds of drivers that will take a drive with RBR.

Either an idiot or someone who believes he can beat Vettel, which might also constitute idiocy if  happens to be a driver like ......... add your own choice here.

RBR are lucky to have Webber for the reasons John stated. No one else is likely to want to touch the job if they understand Rubens career.

Yes TCG, but Rubens has a ready emotional outlet. He can just let it all go and doesn't keep things bottled up inside.

A question, btw, did Rubens ever win a race other than at Ferrari in a car developed massively by Michael Schumacher? I guess I never said how much I love Rubens. Maybe I never will - I keep things so close to my chest. I am emotionally restricted. I just can't say how I really feel.

"Rubens - I lov... I lo...." - nope just can't get it out. My mom should have breast fed me.

<topic> I agree - all levity aside - that Webber's talent level makes him an ideal number two driver at RBR. He is bloody good. But the team I think doesn't really like him, and he hasn't accepted yet he is not as good as Vettel anymore.

If Webber moves on, RBR might just suffer a bit or a lot.

And to make Rob really happy, Ferrari is going to catch them and exceed them at which point we will learn to love the Spanish anthem (new) and remember with fondness yet again that ridiculous ditty called the Italian national anthem.

That is when it is going to get interesting, as the number 2 drivers will be more important.
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Rob
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You made me laugh w/ the breast feeding comment, no need to make a further effort to make me happy.

However I will say now that Ferrari has their win for the season, they scrap 2011 and look to 2012. With the exhaust issue well, exhausted, Ferrari should be strong next season if they can just get a good start to the season.

And Webber is the bitch at RBR, he had his chance last season and didn't make the best of it. This year for what ever reason he has been completely outclassed by Vettel.

Massa is the best number 2 in the past 15 years.
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John
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Rubens won twice in the Brawn <think>
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Rob,Jul 16 2011
08:39 PM
You made me laugh w/ the breast feeding comment, no need to make a further effort to make me happy.

However I will say now that Ferrari has their win for the season, they scrap 2011 and look to 2012. With the exhaust issue well, exhausted, Ferrari should be strong next season if they can just get a good start to the season.

And Webber is the bitch at RBR, he had his chance last season and didn't make the best of it. This year for what ever reason he has been completely outclassed by Vettel.

Massa is the best number 2 in the past 15 years.

Ferrari will win again this season, my dear Rob. As much as that hurts you to hear, I must bring the bad news to you, as a friend, and ready to console you in your hours or days of need given this absolutely horrible news.

Get ready for even worse news after the German GP.

As you know I am not technically proficient. This carbon fibre stuff is beyond me.

But I have really good stuff. It opens my mind whilst doing minimal damage to my lungs (though I am concerned at my enlarged breast size as of late). And just last week I was in the Australian outback breathing in whatever those really black fellas with the big noses and horrible hair gave me, and playing those musical instruments that remind me of my own self digit in my wildest dreams.

RBR has Newey. Vettel is pretty good too, but I am not sure how good he is in the design area. But comptetitive they will be.

McLaren is very professional and frankly far advanced as a corporation in terms of their plans for capitalizing on their F1 expenditures.

But Ferrari has no choice but to succeed. As much as I sometimes dislike Alonso, I think he is a good constructor driver and will help them become dominant. It is a multiyear program.

I still think Schumacher was the best at building a winning team.

Regardless Rob, you must resign yourself to accepting that Ferrari are going to win a few more races this season.

My God I hate bringing such bad news to such a nice guy such as yourself Rob. You don't deserve this terrible news. I wish it was not me to have to tell you but no one else seems to have the guts. But listen - you have a wonderful wife and family. And your jeep is still running pretty good - right??
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