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Just curious but what number will MS's car be?
Topic Started: Jan 17 2010, 10:40 PM (1,634 Views)
John
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Oh I am sorry Rubens I did not know you where a TPL member... <doh>
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AndyW76
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John,Jan 22 2010
12:02 PM
Oh I am sorry Rubens I did not know you where a TPL member... <doh>

I am not reading Ruben's mind, his actions demonstrated his belief, otherwise, why did he kick off?
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everythingoes
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AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
05:34 PM
John,Jan 22 2010
12:02 PM
Oh I am sorry Rubens I did not know you where a TPL member...  <doh>

I am not reading Ruben's mind, his actions demonstrated his belief, otherwise, why did he kick off?

Maybe because he is prone to whiny tantrums, as more recent events have demonstrated? If hindsight can be used to judge Austria '02, why is the same hindsight not applied to RB behaviour?

Saying Rubens was not informed beforehand is speculation, isn't it? As a team, Ferrari did nothing illegal and were well withing their rights to issue whatever team orders they deemed fit, its their prerogative.

So, it can be said that the orders were not fair on Rubens, but in the end Rubens got his undeserved win back at Indy, so it evened out for him and his record.
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John
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AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
11:35 AM
I offered all viable options, including a neutral stance. You can't say fairer than that.

You did in your ar$e... you delibritly grouped Ferrari management and Schumacher in the one option so anyone holdong Ferrari responsible (but not Schumacher) have no other choice but to pick option 1...

It is a poll created from a documented biased view and as such is both pointless and flawed. <roflmao>
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AndyW76
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everythingoes,Jan 22 2010
12:12 PM
AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
05:34 PM
John,Jan 22 2010
12:02 PM
Oh I am sorry Rubens I did not know you where a TPL member...  <doh>

I am not reading Ruben's mind, his actions demonstrated his belief, otherwise, why did he kick off?

Maybe because he is prone to whiny tantrums, as more recent events have demonstrated? If hindsight can be used to judge Austria '02, why is the same hindsight not applied to RB behaviour?

Saying Rubens was not informed beforehand is speculation, isn't it? As a team, Ferrari did nothing illegal and were well withing their rights to issue whatever team orders they deemed fit, its their prerogative.

So, it can be said that the orders were not fair on Rubens, but in the end Rubens got his undeserved win back at Indy, so it evened out for him and his record.

True, it is speculation on my part, but that is what I would expect if I was in Rubens' shoes. I never said that the team orders were illegal, Ferrari had every right to issue them, just that, by his reaction, Rubens was obviously unhappy with the situation and he obviously did not expect to be asked to hand his win to schumacher at the time. Obviously, it is an assumption that Rubens was not informed that his No. 2 status would extend to this situation, but I believe that it is a fair assumption to make based on the rather irrate exchanges reported.
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AndyW76
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John,Jan 22 2010
12:18 PM
AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
11:35 AM
I offered all viable options, including a neutral stance. You can't say fairer than that.

You did in your ar$e... you delibritly grouped Ferrari management and Schumacher in the one option so anyone holdong Ferrari responsible (but not Schumacher) have no other choice but to pick option 1...

It is a poll created from a documented biased view and as such is both pointless and flawed. <roflmao>

How can it be possible to have an option for Schumacher and the management separately, bearing in mind that schumacher was heavily involved in race strategy decisions and the sole beneficiary of the incident?

If it makes you happy, I'll remove all references to schumacher. I can not possibly list schumacher alone because he could not have ordered Rubens to pull over without the orders of the management.
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SaveOurSilverstone
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would now be a good time to point out that there isn't a 'i blame Tony Blair' option...?? <angel>
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John
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AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
12:25 PM
I believe that it is a fair assumption to make based on the rather irrate exchanges reported.

I believe it is not a fair assumption.

Rubens knew the score... he was upset because the reality of having to do as he was paid to do hit home... He had spent 2 years with the team and had probably forgotten he had a duty to obey the team... there is no evidence anywhere to suggest Rubens had ever been asked to move aside before this and after two years it probably did come as a shock... but that is his problem, not Ferrari's... head he been in a better position in the standing Ferrari may never have taken the decision, but he wasn't and they did...

If it was NOT in his contract and he felt betrayed he would not have stayed to see out the remaining term of his contract... and he would not have resigned for two more years when the renewal cam up... not the actions of a man not contractually bound to do as the team request, regardless.

You as usual offer no evidence or proof merely your 'feeling'... well sorry that is not enough.
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John
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AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
12:28 PM
John,Jan 22 2010
12:18 PM
AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
11:35 AM
I offered all viable options, including a neutral stance. You can't say fairer than that.

You did in your ar$e... you delibritly grouped Ferrari management and Schumacher in the one option so anyone holdong Ferrari responsible (but not Schumacher) have no other choice but to pick option 1...

It is a poll created from a documented biased view and as such is both pointless and flawed. <roflmao>

How can it be possible to have an option for Schumacher and the management separately, bearing in mind that schumacher was heavily involved in race strategy decisions and the sole beneficiary of the incident?

If it makes you happy, I'll remove all references to schumacher. I can not possibly list schumacher alone because he could not have ordered Rubens to pull over without the orders of the management.

do as you feel... it won't change the fact the poll is a crock. <thumbsup>
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John
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.... only IMO... naturally <thumbsup>
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AndyW76
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John,Jan 22 2010
12:37 PM
AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
12:28 PM
John,Jan 22 2010
12:18 PM
AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
11:35 AM
I offered all viable options, including a neutral stance. You can't say fairer than that.

You did in your ar$e... you delibritly grouped Ferrari management and Schumacher in the one option so anyone holdong Ferrari responsible (but not Schumacher) have no other choice but to pick option 1...

It is a poll created from a documented biased view and as such is both pointless and flawed. <roflmao>

How can it be possible to have an option for Schumacher and the management separately, bearing in mind that schumacher was heavily involved in race strategy decisions and the sole beneficiary of the incident?

If it makes you happy, I'll remove all references to schumacher. I can not possibly list schumacher alone because he could not have ordered Rubens to pull over without the orders of the management.

do as you feel... it won't change the fact the poll is a crock. <thumbsup>

I can see where this is going, you want me to put Schumacher and Ferrari as separate options so it splits the votes that absolves Rubens of blame. Now that is what I call bent politics. nothing like splitting the vote to induce defeat. <roflmao>
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John
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I don't want you to do anything...

The poll is just fine as it stands... Robert Mugabe could learn a few tings from a poll as 'fair' as that one <roflmao>
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Lord Tau
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This is getting crazy!

<topic>

Do car numbers matter? What's in a number?
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John
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Lord Tau,Jan 22 2010
12:51 PM
Do car numbers matter? What's in a number?

well evidently they do matter... better if a driver had 'his' number and kept it throughout his career... does Rossi drop 46 when he wins a championship or changes team...
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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John,Jan 22 2010
11:08 AM
AndyW76,Jan 22 2010
11:05 AM
you don't take my argument as genuine.

I believe that you believe in what you are saying... I just don't believe that what you are saying is right.

Well since Andy is fighting a lone battle here I'd just like to wade in and say that I totally understand his stance and agree with it.

Like Andy I don't have a problem with team orders where they are necessary, however I think it was extremely unlikely, given his 20 point lead, that allowing Rubes to win that race could have cost Schumi the championship. It is questionable therefore whether they were necessary.

I grant you if *could* have happened but the likelhood was extremely low and Ferrari absolutely could have made that judgement at the time i.e. without the ability to see into the future.

I also agree with John that Rubens handled the situation disgracefully; he shamed his employer publicly which is never acceptable.

However Andy raises a valid point; if Rubens expected to be able to complete on merit with Schumacher then he had every reason to feel hard done by. On the other hand if, as widely ruoured, he signed a contract stipulating that he was to support Schumi he has not a legt to stand on.

In either case he should have taken the issue up with the team hierarchy privately after the race and resigned if he felt unable to fulfil the role that was being asked of him.
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