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Double diffusers set for ban in 2011
Topic Started: Jan 7 2010, 02:55 PM (680 Views)
Red Andy
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Formula 1 teams are closing in on a move to ban double diffusers in a bid to cut downforce and slow the cars down from the start of the 2011 season, AUTOSPORT can reveal.

The introduction of double diffusers into F1 caused huge controversy at the start of last season, when rivals protested the concept that was used to great effect by Brawn GP, Williams and Toyota in the opening races of the campaign.

The matter eventually went to the FIA International Court of Appeal, where the double diffuser was deemed fully legal and other teams had to revise the rear end of their cars to make the most of the extra downforce the design produced.

However, with downforce and car speeds having increased since then - and the diffuser designs getting increasingly more complicated - sources have revealed that moves are now afoot to change the F1 regulations to outlaw them completely.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80766

I can see the sense in this move. The cars seemed to be able to overtake more effectively when fewer teams had the diffusers. We will see though.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Red Andy,Jan 7 2010
02:55 PM

The cars seemed to be able to overtake more effectively when fewer teams had the diffusers. We will see though.

Possibly, although the timing of that also fitted with less and less teams using KERS and the performance of the big boys getting better so it's hard to prove that it was the diffusers that caused less overtaking.
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Iberiafromoz
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Why do we want to slow down the cars by removing that "double diffuser" and I don't think the latter has had any impact on overtaking.
What is certain is that this U turn on the technical regulation goes against the philosophy of cost cutting. What don't we just leave it alone for now and wait for better days.

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Rob
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I think care were over taking better w/ the single diffuser, only my opinion. I don't think removing them will slow the cars down to much. Good decision IMO.
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everythingoes
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I'm not convinced banning the double diffuser will directly improve overtaking. What we saw early last season was that cars were able to get closer behind non-diffuser cars. In that, the removal of the DD could, in theory, allow cars to get closer behind the car in front, therefore giving a better opportunity to overtake, at best.

The double diffuser should never have been allowed in the first place and the loophole in the regulations should have been closed season itself. The same was done in the case of the flexi-floor, flexi-wing etc. Allowing it to continue was a typical FIA short-term, wishy-washy move.

This time its the teams that are proposing it be banned for 2011, so I'm betting there will be a few dissenters wanting it to continue citing additional cost of redesign.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Rob,Jan 8 2010
04:52 AM
I think care were over taking better w/ the single diffuser, only my opinion. I don't think removing them will slow the cars down to much. Good decision IMO.

And in truth the FIA's overtaking committee agrees with you. In principle the double diffuser creates more dirty air behind the car, making it harder for the car behind to follow closely and thus making it harder to overtake, which is why the FIA hadn't intended the rules to allow double diffusers. That they were permitted was down to clever interpretation of the the badly worded rules.

All I was saying in my previous post was that at the same time as double diffusers were being hurriedly introduced by those teams that hadn't already got one so other changes were also happening and so it is difficult to "prove" one way or the other.
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sportsman
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A reduction of ground effect means more reliance on the upper surfaces to create downforce.
That will mean more aggressive wing angles,which will then produce even more turbulence.
This wil mean the cars overall will become more sensitive to turbulence. That'll serve to increase the following distance of cars behind and the end result will be the same.

Gascoyne also said this in the same article.Which conveneintly was overlooked.


"Gascoyne did not believe that the double diffuser ban would have that big an impact in terms of helping overtaking, though.

When asked if he felt the widespread use of double diffusers in F1 had hindered overtaking, Gascoyne said: "I don't think there was a reduction in overtaking, but the changes to improve overtaking didn't help. And in fact, if you look at the numbers, it was never going to.

"But if you look at it carefully, what the [F1 teams'] aero group set out to achieve it actually did, and if you take the diffuser away it will do exactly what it said on the tin. Unfortunately that will never help you overtake anyone."
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Rob
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Petra Lead,Jan 9 2010
03:31 AM
Rob,Jan 8 2010
04:52 AM
I think care were over taking better w/ the single diffuser, only my opinion. I don't think removing them will slow the cars down to much. Good decision IMO.

And in truth the FIA's overtaking committee agrees with you. In principle the double diffuser creates more dirty air behind the car, making it harder for the car behind to follow closely and thus making it harder to overtake, which is why the FIA hadn't intended the rules to allow double diffusers. That they were permitted was down to clever interpretation of the the badly worded rules.

All I was saying in my previous post was that at the same time as double diffusers were being hurriedly introduced by those teams that hadn't already got one so other changes were also happening and so it is difficult to "prove" one way or the other.

Valid point, and I could be wrong. Just seems like as the year went on there was less overtaking. It could have been the diffusers or something else. We should know a little better this year I think.
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P1
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Overtaking statistics for 2009 where overtaking figures for each race do not include:
a) Position changes on the first lap of the race
b) Drivers lapping backmarkers
c) Positions gained in pitstop
d) Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident, etc.

22, Albert Park,
16 (wet), Sepang
54 (wet), Shanghai
16, Bahrain
4, Catalunya
4, Monaco
9, Istanbul
9, Silverstone
15, Nurburgring
3, Hangaroring
0, Valencia
11, Spa
7, Monza,
2, Singapore
11, Suzuka
25, Interlagos,
6, Yas Marina

What about compulsary having e.g. 2 consecutive turns in the wet at each track? Just to give some excitement, as some of those numbers above are honestly very depressing.
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Lord Tau
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P-One,Jan 10 2010
08:22 AM
Overtaking statistics for 2009 where overtaking figures for each race do not include:
a) Position changes on the first lap of the race
b) Drivers lapping backmarkers
c) Positions gained in pitstop
d) Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident, etc.

22, Albert Park,
16 (wet), Sepang
54 (wet), Shanghai
16, Bahrain
4, Catalunya
4, Monaco
9, Istanbul
9, Silverstone
15, Nurburgring
3, Hangaroring
0, Valencia
11, Spa
7, Monza,
2, Singapore
11, Suzuka
25, Interlagos,
6, Yas Marina

What about compulsary having e.g. 2 consecutive turns in the wet at each track? Just to give some excitement, as some of those numbers above are honestly very depressing.

Interesting stats!
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Lord Tau,Jan 10 2010
10:38 AM
P-One,Jan 10 2010
08:22 AM
Overtaking statistics for 2009 where overtaking figures for each race do not include:
a) Position changes on the first lap of the race
b) Drivers lapping backmarkers
c) Positions gained in pitstop
d) Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident, etc.

22, Albert Park,
16 (wet), Sepang
54 (wet), Shanghai
16, Bahrain
  4, Catalunya
  4, Monaco
  9, Istanbul
  9, Silverstone
15, Nurburgring
  3, Hangaroring
  0, Valencia
11, Spa
  7, Monza,
  2, Singapore
11, Suzuka
25, Interlagos,
  6, Yas Marina

What about compulsary having e.g. 2 consecutive turns in the wet at each track?  Just to give some excitement, as some of those numbers above are honestly very depressing.

Interesting stats!

Indeed, where did you come across those?
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P1
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Took a snapshot of this data end of last season on the ClipTheApex forum.
The concept was brought live by a Brian Lawrence and he had a couple of friends compiling F1 data with him of all sorts through several seasons since late 80ties. Think also there were a user called "Gordon Murray", but he is maybe different than the designer...
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Norbert
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Is that changes as scored at start/finish line, or anywhere during the lap (ie the position being reclaimed before then end of the lap it was lost)? I cannot believe that not a single car managed a single overtaking manouvre except in the pits for an entire race!
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Lord Tau
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Norbert,Jan 10 2010
05:24 PM
Is that changes as scored at start/finish line, or anywhere during the lap (ie the position being reclaimed before then end of the lap it was lost)? I cannot believe that not a single car managed a single overtaking manouvre except in the pits for an entire race!

We are talking about Valencia. It's not the best track in the world!
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Norbert
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No, but even Monaco allegedly scored 4!
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