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Could MS at Mercedes by good for Alonso?
Topic Started: Dec 23 2009, 02:43 PM (1,320 Views)
Steelstallions
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Petra Lead,Dec 23 2009
11:01 PM
but I have never liked Ferrari so I'd be happier to be proved right .....

I think with that last comment it cheapens your posts.
It shows to me its rather more a case of you hoping that they are devolving, rather than it really being what's happening or what you think is happening.

No team ever achieved what they did between 1999 and 2004 and no team could keep up that level of success forever. It does not mean Ferrari will not taste success again, but I it will be many years before ANY team dominates like that again. FIA will not allow it, Bernie and/or his successor will not allow it. They will change the rules like they did in 2005 and 2009 and throw a spanner in any teams plan of long term domination of the sport.
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Steelstallions
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John,Dec 23 2009
11:27 PM
If Alonso puts him in his place there will be plenty to say that either it was because he is not fully recovered after his accident or it is because Kimi only gave 70%, the rest of the time he coasted.

I can't see Massa beating Alonso.

If Massa can beat Alonso, then he will officially be the most under rated driver on the grid if not modern history of F1.
He kept up with MS better than many thought possible in his maiden years at Ferrari, he proved to be a better overall package than Kimi.

Mercedes will be very pleased if Massa beats Alonso, it further strengthens the fact they have acquired the services of possibly the best racing driver that has ever set foot in F1.
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John
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High praise for Nico indeed <thumbsup>
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Steelstallions,Dec 23 2009
11:30 PM
Petra Lead,Dec 23 2009
11:01 PM
but I have never liked Ferrari so I'd be happier to be proved right .....

I think with that last comment it cheapens your posts.
It shows to me its rather more a case of you hoping that they are devolving, rather than it really being what's happening or what you think is happening.

Cheap or not ... well I'll leave that for you to decide. I don't think it is by any means uncommon in people following a team sport to not wish their competitors well. How many Liverpool fans would not wish ill fortune on Manchester United? How many Spurs fans really want Arsenal to do well?

My dislike of Ferrari was forged at the time when they were Williams rival (sadly Williams have fallen too far behind for that to still be true) and since then I have found that the way the team conducts itself has caused me to like them less and less.

I add this comment into my post so that my opinions can be seen in context. I pride myself on being able to see past my likes and dislikes to be able to view things objectively, however I cannot say for sure that I have achieved such so I allow you to see the context of my opinion. You can judge for yourself whether it is wishful thinking or whether it is backed up by the supporting arguments.

For example I don't like Lewis and I wish he was rubbish - really, I do - but I can see that he is one of the most brilliant drivers out there and is likely to enter the pantheon of the greats before he's done.

In the past few seasons I have seen Ferrari drop the ball in ways that were until recently unthinkable - and not just by their previous standards but by the standards of any team with aspirations to win titles. And I'm not alone; look at some of the rants Luca has come out with over the past year.

I believe that Ferrari are becoming less and less the super-efficient, super organised team that they were. That I also happen to wish that to be true may have coloured my thinking but I think there is plenty of supporting evidence to suggest not.


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everythingoes
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As a long standing Ferrari fan, I wish I could respond to Petra's contention by saying that he's talking utter b*ll*cks. But, I find that I can't.

Mind you, I want him to be completely wrong and would love it if he was proven to be so. However, there is a small element of truth in what he says. Ferrari have made quite a few strategic errors in a last 2-3 seasons, thats undeniable. Maybe its true of other teams too, or it seems so in comparison to the years immediately preceding the last 2-3 at Ferrari, but the incidences are there. Whether thats an aberration or a precursor to whats to follow, I don't know. I'm hoping its the former.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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John,Dec 23 2009
10:31 PM
OK so a run of 6 WCC and 5 WDC titles is unlikely but I think they will be stronger than they have been under Kimi and they managed one WDC and two WCC titles with Massa/Kimi <think>

"Under Kimi"

When was he ever given the mandate to lead the team?
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GordonB
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I'd like to add my support to Petra.

I love his posts - they are always well thought out and thought provoking and he is right to be proud of being able to separate his personal preferences from the logic of what he is saying. And showing his personal feelings at the end of the post just lets you judge for yourself, it doesn't cheapen anything.

The fact I hardly ever find myself disagreeing with him is also a factor in my thoughts here.

Of course, there ARE times when he cheapens himself. His constant allegation that Bridgestone smell of wee, for example. :-)
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everythingoes
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Bah, Petra stinks!









*actually he doesn't, but we don't want him getting a swollen head, do we?*

:P
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Red Andy
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Dec 24 2009
10:44 AM
"Under Kimi"

When was he ever given the mandate to lead the team?

That was the whole point. Ferrari needed a successor to Schumacher and Todt didn't like Alonso. The only other person even remotely good enough for the job was Kimi.

It now appears that Schumi was asked to leave Ferrari a year or so before he was completely ready, and Ferrari have publicly acknowledged that Kimi didn't fit into the team leader role as expected.
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sportsman
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"The Italian, speaking to the press at Ferrari's annual Christmas lunch last week, indicated that with Felipe Massa still recovering from injury, and the 2009-specification F60 having proved less than spectacular, the team urgently needed a driver that could drive the development of a car. He added that he considered Alonso, rather than Kimi Raikkonen to be that person.

"Besides hazy regulations, our car in 2009 wasn't up to the level of competitiveness we needed," Montezemolo was quoted as saying in Gazetta dello Sport. "I was afraid that Massa wouldn't recover. After his crash we have focused on the 2010 car. Kimi had trouble working with the team, but my judgement on him is positive."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80636
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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The regulations weren't the only thing that was hazy. Ferrari never made it clear that Kimi's role was to lead the team and Massa's to support him, thereby effectively replacing MS as team lead.

Kimi had trouble working with the team, did he? Why eject MS before he was ready? To ensure Massa kept his seat. Why leave MS in the team, when he's just made this massive sacrifice for Massa?

Why the surprise when Kimi remained the same 'closed' person he has always been ever since he started in F1? What were they expecting?

All through his time at Ferrari, Kimi was supposed to be 'equal' to Massa, despite being recruited to fill Michael's shoes. How is he supposed to lead the team if he's not made team leader and if he wasn't the team leader they say they were looking for, why did they recruit him?

If he's so bad at car development, why was the 2003 and especially the 2005 Mclaren such a killer? Why did the 2007 Ferrari come to life in the second part of the season and win the WDC and the WCC?

Well, Ferrari now have the driver they deserve, can't wait to see how they get on.
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Rob
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Petra Lead,Dec 23 2009
05:01 PM
I would say I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but I have never liked Ferrari so I'd be happier to be proved right .....

The reality is of all the driver on the grid, Alonso is the most Shumi like. The possibility of the Alonso/Ferrari team probably won't fall flat. I'd bet at least one WDC/WCC will come of it, probably two.

Expecting Ferrari to take 5 titles w/ Alonso behind the wheel is a bit unfair.
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wild_thing
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I remember when Brawn left and MS was going to retire and most Ferrari haters were wetting themselves with glee at the prospect of a Ferrari demise.
Well they won 2 WCC and 1 WDC in the next two years and but for a few mistakes would have won 2 WDC.
If winning like that when your not on your top game is deemed bad then getting their act together with Alonso at the helm should prove very interesting.

Had Mclaren not dropped a bollock last season (2009) as well as Ferrari and most of the grid regarding that diffuser, I am sure the vultures of the UK forum world would have been circling Ferrari again.

Get over yourselves, MS retired because in his own words he was worn out and Kimi came in as there was nobody else quicker on the market.
I see nobody mentions what a complete hash Mclaren made of employing Alonso let alone the fact they have got caught cheating at a level that should have seen them banned from the sport.
If any team is heading down the toilet look no further than the silver team who have just lost the full support of Mercedes and will be buying what will no doubt be an inferior works Mercedes engine in future. Or will Mercedes supply the best engines to other teams over their own all German F1 team?
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Iberiafromoz
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Back to the question, I don't think Alonso would have liked getting advices from someone he beats twice. Alonso would have as much skills to work with a team to assist in car developement and team continuous improvement to become as successful as Schumacher did (probably not in number). The only problem for Alonso is not to have a "Brawn" and a "Todt".

I believe Kimi might have been somehow affected by Schumacher presence in the pitlane and the preferencial treatment given to Massa for the reasons that we know. Furthermore his "consultation" position might have not worked that well for Ferrari to decide to let go so easily.

Massa's mentor and father in law are no longer there. Unless Massa start beating Alonso, I think Ferrari is going to make Alonso the number 1 driver without hesitation and no surprise to me if that has already been negotiated when Alonso was signed up.
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Red Andy
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I don't think Massa was ever given preferential treatment to Kimi. I think Kimi was signed to Ferrari with certain expectations, but never fulfilled those expectations. When it became clear that Kimi was not capable of beating Massa in equal equipment on the majority of weekends, Ferrari switched focus to Massa. The rest, as they say, is history,
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