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Renault win appeal
Topic Started: Aug 17 2009, 04:09 PM (581 Views)
sportsman
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In 2007 Mclaren were fined $100 milion and stripped of their seasons WCC points,which are worth many millions of dollars.
Their major crime was possesing confedential information about a rival team, namely Ferrari.
Their fine was later reduced to $25 million.
This year McLaren were given a three race suspended ban, after the Melbourne "lie gate" hearing.

Neither of these two events endangered anyone's life,or could have caused anyone any injury.
Renault, by their own admission, released a car from the pits knowing that the wheel was incorrectly fitted.
And to compound the error, then failed to inform the driver to stop the car immediately.

There is no way, that this punishment fit's the crime.
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Red Andy
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sportsman,Aug 18 2009
07:14 PM
Neither of these two events endangered anyone's life,or could have caused anyone any injury.
Renault, by their own admission, released a car from the pits knowing that the wheel was incorrectly fitted.
And to compound the error, then failed to inform the driver to stop the car immediately.

There is no way, that this punishment fit's the crime.

The key is the "knowing" part. As the FIA say:

"In assessing the penalty which is appropriate in an individual case, great care must be taken not to equate potential danger with conscious wrong-doing."

So the FIA conclude there is no evidence to suggest that Renault intentionally released Alonso without his wheel safely secured. If there had been intent (hence negligence), you can be sure the penalty would have been much higher.

The original stewards' decision was a knee-jerk reaction to the events of the previous week. Now that the evidence has been fully considered, IMO the right decision has been made.

And let's stop going on about Spygate. McLaren got off lightly for what was a massive breach of the rules as well as a criminal activity.
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AndyW76
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Red Andy,Aug 19 2009
12:43 PM
And let's stop going on about Spygate. McLaren got off lightly for what was a massive breach of the rules as well as a criminal activity.

Er, I think you ought to take your own advice there. McLaren got what was coming to them, nuff said. Also, the criminal act (theft) was commited by Stepney, who was a Ferrari employee at the time.

In addition, lets not forget that Renault got away with a near identical offense to McLaren based on a defense of "I can't remember, Guv. Honest"

Now lets that be the end of it, before we all end up in a silly slagging match again.
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timmadigan
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flood1,Aug 17 2009
10:22 PM
Bernie, Bernie, Bernie. You guys do not seem to understand the business of F1. The FOM/CVC fees, the TV fees, the sponsor fees do not have anything to do with race attendence. Those are contractural fees agreed long ago and cannot be changed or altered, and are not in anyway tied to attendance. Bernie, CVC, and everyone involved get their money regardless of the people in the seats.

Only the local promoter of the event suffers from ticket sales, and the food vendors, etc.

It is true that in the long term it may erode the promoter's will to continue to host an event, and that may reduce Bernie's take in the long run. But that is many contract years down the line.

Bernie/CVC does not directly make a penny off of event attendance. Nor do the FIA.

Actually, we do Flood :)

Yes, the commercial rights holders get their money no matter what - they get a flat fee to allow a city/site to host a race.
BUT, if the ticket sales are down drastically and it seems to be a trend when you are missing a local or star driver/team, then you'll have a problem getting them to pay the same amount in future years and, more importantly, you'll have a problem getting new tracks/cities to pay the same amount without some guarantees on sales and/or revenue

That's why Bernie, as the front for FOM, was lukewarm in his support for Max vs the manufacturers. He knew that if they lost the big names, fewer locations will want to host a race or be willing to pay the sums FOM wants.

It's not Valencia today Bernie/FOM/CVC would be worrying about but Valencia, Monaco, India, Russia and other tomorrow.
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Kerri
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I don't get it. :(
It's all wrong. <no>
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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AndyW76,Aug 19 2009
01:56 PM

In addition, lets not forget that Renault got away with a near identical offense to McLaren based on a defense of "I can't remember, Guv. Honest"

I love the way you are so so comfortable distorting the facts beyond all recognition...... astonishing. I mean, it's one thing to defend your team but that's just crazy.





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Kerri
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<no>
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Red Andy
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Petra Lead,Aug 19 2009
11:32 PM
AndyW76,Aug 19 2009
01:56 PM

In addition, lets not forget that Renault got away with a near identical offense to McLaren based on a defense of "I can't remember, Guv. Honest"

I love the way you are so so comfortable distorting the facts beyond all recognition...... astonishing. I mean, it's one thing to defend your team but that's just crazy.

I was going to stay quiet as requested, but as Petra has jumped in so shall I....

Receiving stolen goods is a crime as well as theft. Furthermore, there is a massive difference between a few technical drawings taken from one team to another when an engineer transfers jobs, and having an on-demand supply of stolen information from a mole inside another team.
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AndyW76
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Red Andy,Aug 20 2009
08:42 AM
Petra Lead,Aug 19 2009
11:32 PM
AndyW76,Aug 19 2009
01:56 PM

In addition, lets not forget that Renault got away with a near identical offense to McLaren based on a defense of "I can't remember, Guv. Honest"

I love the way you are so so comfortable distorting the facts beyond all recognition...... astonishing. I mean, it's one thing to defend your team but that's just crazy.

I was going to stay quiet as requested, but as Petra has jumped in so shall I....

Receiving stolen goods is a crime as well as theft. Furthermore, there is a massive difference between a few technical drawings taken from one team to another when an engineer transfers jobs, and having an on-demand supply of stolen information from a mole inside another team.

Well, you both have your opinions and I have mine and there is no need to get personal or throw around accusations.

Lets not forget that the only reason that Renault didn't get any further accusations against them because Mclaren were "persuaded" to drop the case in rather convenient timing for the FIA to clear the 2008 McLaren to race.

As much as I am accused of "distorting the facts", I feel that anyone that tries to differentiate between McLaren and other cases of spying are equally distorting the facts. The only reason that the McLaren case got so far is because a certain Fernando Alonso threatened to expose McLaren's activities, upon which Ron Dennis himself actually confessed to the FIA.

It is rather naive to believe that no other team spies. It is common practice for teams to employ photographers to casually "stroll" the pitlane and paddock; Ferrari used to employ a guy to sit outside the Benetton pit and report all Benetton's strategy calls; teams further down the grid had full blueprints of the STR car which they submitted as evident of intellectual property breeches; and finally, in the Renault spying case, it was just a little more than a couple of drawings. Do you honestly believe that McLaren are so stupid as to bring a case like that did over a couple of drawings, like I sauid before the only difference between McLaren and Renault was the fact that McLaren (eventually) came clean (after Max's witch hunt, although he was somewhat right in this case) and Renault stayed tight lipped until McLaren dropped the case.

I think the hypocracy shown in some of the comments on here is staggering, if McLaren does anything to displease, they are called evil and slated continuously and the case gets brought up at the slightest nudge, yet anyother team does anything wrong (including offenses very similar to McLaren's) and it gets conveniently forgotten within the month and anyone defending McLaren gets accused of "distorting the truth". I think it is time that some members on here really grew up. I don't ask anyone to agree with me but lets not start childish accusations over merely expressing an opinion.

And before anyone has a go at me about Schumacher comments, it's not me that constantly brings up the Schumi/evil arguement (although I have been known to join in on going debates, but what is wrong with that).

Anyway, end of rant.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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AndyW76,Aug 20 2009
09:49 AM

It is rather naive to believe that no other team spies.

I'm not naive. I have no doubt that spying is going on. However the differences between McLaren and Renault in this example are both the severity of the crime and the way they behaved once they were under investigation.

I think you know that really.

I admit that it probably wasn't worth such a big disparity in their relative sentences but it was worth far more than you seem prepared to recognise.

And yes, you're right; I shouldn't have allowed my post to get personal. Apologies.

But I also don't think you can throw stones and then demand that that "be the end of it".

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AndyW76
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Petra Lead,Aug 20 2009
12:24 PM
AndyW76,Aug 20 2009
09:49 AM

It is rather naive to believe that no other team spies.

I'm not naive. I have no doubt that spying is going on. However the differences between McLaren and Renault in this example are both the severity of the crime and the way they behaved once they were under investigation.

I think you know that really.

I admit that it probably wasn't worth such a big disparity in their relative sentences but it was worth far more than you seem prepared to recognise.

And yes, you're right; I shouldn't have allowed my post to get personal. Apologies.

But I also don't think you can throw stones and then demand that that "be the end of it".

What I'm saying is that it is unknown what the extent of renault's spying activities because the case was dropped, though admittedly probably less than what McLaren were accused of. In essence, McLaren got hit with a massive fine and lost any priviliage gained from their race performances throughout 2007, where as Renault got off scott free with out any sanction, even though further intensive investigation (as such was levelled at McLaren) could well have revealed serious breeches of the rules. Also, lets not forget that much of the McLaren issue was caused by a certain disgruntled Ferrari employee making the first approach, which certainly would have compounded any spying charges. Stepney could have approached any team and the result would have been the same.
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stradlin24
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Kerri,Aug 19 2009
10:40 PM
<no>

hmmmmm
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Rob
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AndyW76,Aug 20 2009
08:30 AM
Petra Lead,Aug 20 2009
12:24 PM
AndyW76,Aug 20 2009
09:49 AM

It is rather naive to believe that no other team spies.

I'm not naive. I have no doubt that spying is going on. However the differences between McLaren and Renault in this example are both the severity of the crime and the way they behaved once they were under investigation.

I think you know that really.

I admit that it probably wasn't worth such a big disparity in their relative sentences but it was worth far more than you seem prepared to recognise.

And yes, you're right; I shouldn't have allowed my post to get personal. Apologies.

But I also don't think you can throw stones and then demand that that "be the end of it".

What I'm saying is that it is unknown what the extent of renault's spying activities because the case was dropped, though admittedly probably less than what McLaren were accused of. In essence, McLaren got hit with a massive fine and lost any priviliage gained from their race performances throughout 2007, where as Renault got off scott free with out any sanction, even though further intensive investigation (as such was levelled at McLaren) could well have revealed serious breeches of the rules. Also, lets not forget that much of the McLaren issue was caused by a certain disgruntled Ferrari employee making the first approach, which certainly would have compounded any spying charges. Stepney could have approached any team and the result would have been the same.

Not wanting to dig up the same old arguments, I think one of the main differences between Renault and McLaren in their respective spying cases was the way each team handled it. Quite honestly McLaren did try to weasel out of looking bad at every turn. Denying they had any information, denying they used any information, saying it was ok to have it because it was given to them by a Ferrari employee, all of which is bunk. If Martin decided to give Williams McLaren's wind tunnel, I'm certain there would be a fuss when the trucks arrived to pick it up.

Additionally McLaren's accusations levied at Renault while they may have been rescinded under pressure, I still think were greatly overstated. It really looked like a kid who was caught red handed narking on his little brother in hopes of getting one less spanking.
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Norbert
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I thought the difference was that when Renault found out someone had some McLaren data, they immediately went to the FIA about it, rather than actually try to use it for their own gain and then lie about the whole lot? Also, as I seem to recall, the extent of Renault's dodgy data was a basic schematic of McLaren's cooling system, not almost 800 pages of blueprints?
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AndyW76
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That is where you are wrong, Renault didn't go to the FIA, they just pleaded ignorance and that seemed to satisfy the FIA.
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