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Räikkönen to retire after 2009; So it's being reported
Topic Started: Jul 15 2009, 02:40 AM (741 Views)
TheCompleteGuitarist
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I know it's a contentious issue regarding Kimi's title, but I said before he won it that after all that had happened regarding Mclaren and they were still allowed to compete, there was no way they were going to be allowed to win anything that year. I suspect, and I don't mean this in disrespect to Kimi, that Mclaren were told that they could continue to put on the show for the sake of the sponsors but that they would have to somehow 'lose' the title.

Didn't Lewis have some mysterious problem with a button in the deciding race and found himself cruising in pitlane mode for a significant amount of a lap and enough to take himself out of contention? Not the Button that he now has a problem with.
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Jack
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 18 2009
04:10 AM
I know it's a contentious issue regarding Kimi's title, but I said before he won it that after all that had happened regarding Mclaren and they were still allowed to compete, there was no way they were going to be allowed to win anything that year. I suspect, and I don't mean this in disrespect to Kimi, that Mclaren were told that they could continue to put on the show for the sake of the sponsors but that they would have to somehow 'lose' the title.

Didn't Lewis have some mysterious problem with a button in the deciding race and found himself cruising in pitlane mode for a significant amount of a lap and enough to take himself out of contention? Not the Button that he now has a problem with.

Are you saying that McLaren ordered Lewis to push that button to lose the race and the title?

<think>
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RJHSaints
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 18 2009
04:10 AM
I know it's a contentious issue regarding Kimi's title, but I said before he won it that after all that had happened regarding Mclaren and they were still allowed to compete, there was no way they were going to be allowed to win anything that year. I suspect, and I don't mean this in disrespect to Kimi, that Mclaren were told that they could continue to put on the show for the sake of the sponsors but that they would have to somehow 'lose' the title.

Didn't Lewis have some mysterious problem with a button in the deciding race and found himself cruising in pitlane mode for a significant amount of a lap and enough to take himself out of contention? Not the Button that he now has a problem with.

With due respect, can you honestly see Hamilton and Alonso agreeing to that? Like puck they would. <fight>
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Mclaren were found guilty of one of the most heinous acts of cheating.....and yet they were still allowed to compete? Where is the logic in that?

The only logic was that the loss of one of the biggest teams in F1 would have thrown the commercial aspect/future of the sport into chaos.

Sponsors wouldn't want to invest in a sport if they felt their money was going to be wasted if the team they sponsored was ruled out.

AND yet, Mclaren couldn't surely be allowed to win after all that.

Right or not, IT'S HOW I SEE IT. You can't disprove it any more than I can prove it. As for Lewis and the BUTTON. There's no proof that Lewis actually pressed any button, the video footage is far from conclusive. But are you telling me that the pit lane limiter can't be activated from probably anywhere in the world if you wanted to do it.

It's far from likely that Lewis nor Alonso took any part in it, nor had any knowledge.

There is a philosophical argument called okhams razor. It suggest that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. But it doesn't go so far as to state that the simplest answer IS the correct one.

Human beings and their endeavours are rarely uncomplex.
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Steelstallions
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 18 2009
01:41 PM
Mclaren were found guilty of one of the most heinous acts of cheating.....and yet they were still allowed to compete? Where is the logic in that?

The only logic was that the loss of one of the biggest teams in F1 would have thrown the commercial aspect/future of the sport into chaos.

Sponsors wouldn't want to invest in a sport if they felt their money was going to be wasted if the team they sponsored was ruled out.

AND yet, Mclaren couldn't surely be allowed to win after all that.

Right or not, IT'S HOW I SEE IT. You can't disprove it any more than I can prove it. As for Lewis and the BUTTON. There's no proof that Lewis actually pressed any button, the video footage is far from conclusive. But are you telling me that the pit lane limiter can't be activated from probably anywhere in the world if you wanted to do it.

It's far from likely that Lewis nor Alonso took any part in it, nor had any knowledge.

There is a philosophical argument called okhams razor. It suggest that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. But it doesn't go so far as to state that the simplest answer IS the correct one.

Human beings and their endeavours are rarely uncomplex.

Well if we are going into the realm of fairy stories i guess last seasons WDC was set up as well.

Its as daft as your opinion on the way Kimi won his WDC.

Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction, the truth being Kimi took advantage of a Mclaren team that dropped the ball, Lewis did the same the year after when Ferrari's pit shambles lost Massa vital points.
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RJHSaints
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 18 2009
02:41 PM
Mclaren were found guilty of one of the most heinous acts of cheating.....and yet they were still allowed to compete? Where is the logic in that?

The only logic was that the loss of one of the biggest teams in F1 would have thrown the commercial aspect/future of the sport into chaos.

Sponsors wouldn't want to invest in a sport if they felt their money was going to be wasted if the team they sponsored was ruled out.

AND yet, Mclaren couldn't surely be allowed to win after all that.

Right or not, IT'S HOW I SEE IT. You can't disprove it any more than I can prove it. As for Lewis and the BUTTON. There's no proof that Lewis actually pressed any button, the video footage is far from conclusive. But are you telling me that the pit lane limiter can't be activated from probably anywhere in the world if you wanted to do it.

It's far from likely that Lewis nor Alonso took any part in it, nor had any knowledge.

There is a philosophical argument called okhams razor. It suggest that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. But it doesn't go so far as to state that the simplest answer IS the correct one.

Human beings and their endeavours are rarely uncomplex.

Alright, let's take this point-by-point.

- McLaren were found cheating, true. However, this was the fault of one McLaren team member, probably without the rest of the team even knowing anything. Furthermore, McLaren had two drivers who almost certainly knew nothing in contention for the championship. Can you imagine the moral outrage amongst the very passionate fans of Hamilton and Alonso had they been excluded? That is why McLaren were allowed to continue. The punishment of revoking the team's points and excluding them from the championship was the only morally acceptable (to the fans and drivers) and, given the public nature of the row, the only polticially sensible decision. Nothing more to it.

- McLaren paid a $100m fine in the aftermath of this incident. Do you really think the loss of a couple of sponsors (assuming they dropped their deals) would have been that big a blow to them? Even had McLaren been excluded, they would still almost certainly have been back the following year. The commercial prospects of the sport would only have suffered slightly in the grand scheme of things. You argue that sponsors would somehow be put off by Spygate, as though it would provide a precedent to deter sponsors. Yet this was an extraordianarily rare event caused by an errant individual, and anyone with a brain could see this.

- McLaren couldn't be allowed to win, true, hence why they were excluded from the WCC. But there was no reason why Hamilton or Alonso might not be allowed to win simply because they happened to drive a McLaren. McLaren would not have recieved credit themselves.

- Even assuming you're right about the button, Hamilton need not have pressed any button in order for it to be a completely honest mechanical problem. The engine or gearbox could have momentarily failed, for example. As for activiating the pitlane limiter from anywhere in the world, that's ridiculous. The pitlane limiter can only be activated from the car.

- All else aside, I re-iterate my previous point. Why would Hamilton and Alonso go along with the charade? Alonso in particular, as he probably knew by then that he was leaving McLaren at the end of the year.

Either this is a bad wind-up, or you have smoked something rather strong recently. <think>
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Red Andy
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Alonso knew about the spying, we know about this from the emails sent between himself and de la Rosa. I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton was aware too. The idea that Spygate was the work of "one rogue employee" was thoroughly discredited by the evidence presented before the WMSC; several senior McLaren employees knew of the spying and the team didn't exactly cover itself in glory in the way it dealt with Coughlan (c.f. Stepney at Ferrari, who was almost immediately fired - Coughlan wasn't even suspended for quite some time).
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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The thing is, you're suggesting that I am trying to discredit Kimi's title because he only won it because Mclaren were told they were not allowed to.

In essence, Kimi was the best non-cheat developed car driving racer.

The Mclaren drivers were allowed to keep points they achieved in a cheat developed car and to continue driving said car for the rest of the season. Regardless of wether LH or Alonso were in on it, they were still driving having gained from and still to gain from, illegal hardware.

That's like saying to Lewis, you missed the chicane and we believe you cheated so we're going to fine you but you can keep the points.
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RJHSaints
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Red Andy,Jul 18 2009
04:29 PM
Alonso knew about the spying, we know about this from the emails sent between himself and de la Rosa. I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton was aware too. The idea that Spygate was the work of "one rogue employee" was thoroughly discredited by the evidence presented before the WMSC; several senior McLaren employees knew of the spying and the team didn't exactly cover itself in glory in the way it dealt with Coughlan (c.f. Stepney at Ferrari, who was almost immediately fired - Coughlan wasn't even suspended for quite some time).

Even so, you surely agree with me that TCG's scenario is highly unlikely to be true?
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Quote:
 
- McLaren were found cheating, true. However, this was the fault of one McLaren team member, probably without the rest of the team even knowing anything. Furthermore, McLaren had two drivers who almost certainly knew nothing in contention for the championship. Can you imagine the moral outrage amongst the very passionate fans of Hamilton and Alonso had they been excluded? That is why McLaren were allowed to continue. The punishment of revoking the team's points and excluding them from the championship was the only morally acceptable (to the fans and drivers) and, given the public nature of the row, the only polticially sensible decision. Nothing more to it.


Disagree, certainly any success on the part of the drivers was gained by the use of illicitly developed cars. Fans are likely to be put off by their "hero's" departure because the average fan is more likely to follow a driver rather than a team. Thus the drivers were allowed to continue to keep the fans happy most of whom probably care less about the team success. The team ultimately were denied competition and the drivers came away with nothing. The logical outcome of this theory.


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- McLaren paid a $100m fine in the aftermath of this incident. Do you really think the loss of a couple of sponsors (assuming they dropped their deals) would have been that big a blow to them? Even had McLaren been excluded, they would still almost certainly have been back the following year. The commercial prospects of the sport would only have suffered slightly in the grand scheme of things. You argue that sponsors would somehow be put off by Spygate, as though it would provide a precedent to deter sponsors. Yet this was an extraordianarily rare event caused by an errant individual, and anyone with a brain could see this.


Disagree . . . sponsors don't want to align themselves with 'cheats' or to spend money that would not be put to effective use and whole marketing campaigns and years of investment wasted if their team was banned for half a season and no one saw the ads. This would certainly put off future investors who might not want the rules to prevent their team competing for any significant length of time. Waste of money on their behalf, commercial future of F1 destabilized.

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- McLaren couldn't be allowed to win, true, hence why they were excluded from the WCC. But there was no reason why Hamilton or Alonso might not be allowed to win simply because they happened to drive a McLaren. McLaren would not have recieved credit themselves.

Drivers retained points accrued in a car developed through cheating, allowed to compete in the same car. Where is the logic in that? The logic suggests that the sport is oft times less a sport than we believe and certain decisions were made to keep the paying punters happy. Drivers were not necessarily guilt free. Why were Mclaren not forced to either modify their car or modify a previous years car? That's simply not right, not logical...unless this car was never going to win anything, so it didn't matter.

If a team can as many suggest time and again on here rig a car to keep a driver from fulfilling his potential. As even Barichello is stating, then why can Mclaren not do the same to their drivers at crucial times to stop them winning. Mysterious half lap at half speed on Lewis car in deciding race of the season. Fans get a cliff hanger, Ferrari get justice already negotiated at spygte. It's a grassy knoll situation. You can't deny it.

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- Even assuming you're right about the button, Hamilton need not have pressed any button in order for it to be a completely honest mechanical problem. The engine or gearbox could have momentarily failed, for example. As for activiating the pitlane limiter from anywhere in the world, that's ridiculous. The pitlane limiter can only be activated from the car.

Sure, but anything can be rigged. The pit lane limiter is no doubt set to be activated from the car to stop the team rigging an auto pit lane limiter to prevent their drivers speeding and giving the drivers the responsibility of dealing with it. Prove to me it cannot be altered or rigged.

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- All else aside, I re-iterate my previous point. Why would Hamilton and Alonso go along with the charade? Alonso in particular, as he probably knew by then that he was leaving McLaren at the end of the year.

They didn't need to know anything, the less they knew, the better the charade.

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Either this is a bad wind-up, or you have smoked something rather strong recently.

No . . . it's an opinion. My opinion. I don't have an ounce of proof, but you cannot disprove it by the same token.

We can move on. I know this theme has been done to death.
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Steelstallions
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Quote:
 
Alright, let's take this point-by-point.

- McLaren were found cheating, true. However, this was the fault of one McLaren team member, probably without the rest of the team even knowing anything.


Are you having a giggle? Did you not read any of the transcripts showing just how many team members were declared by Mclaren as knowing?

Quote:
 
Furthermore, McLaren had two drivers who almost certainly knew nothing in contention for the championship.


Which two drivers are these then? Alonso and the test driver provided the email evidence that led to FIA having enough to reinvestigate and punish Mclaren. Lewis has denied knowing anything but then was found to be a bare faced liar this season.

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Can you imagine the moral outrage amongst the very passionate fans of Hamilton and Alonso had they been excluded? That is why McLaren were allowed to continue. The punishment of revoking the team's points and excluding them from the championship was the only morally acceptable (to the fans and drivers) and, given the public nature of the row, the only polticially sensible decision. Nothing more to it.

FIA and Bernie don't give a flying F what outrage anyone has, all they care about is viewing figures and revenue. If Mclaren had been kicked out for the one or two seasons mentioned revenue would have gone down. So a fine and a slap on the wrists for constructors points and alls well with FIA.


Quote:
 
- McLaren couldn't be allowed to win, true, hence why they were excluded from the WCC. But there was no reason why Hamilton or Alonso might not be allowed to win simply because they happened to drive a McLaren. McLaren would not have recieved credit themselves.


Partly agree, the drivers benefited from a car that gained an advantage by its builders stealing the data from the most successful team on the grid. Mclarens car that year seemed to gain a lot reliability lacking for nearly a decade. For me regardless of cost they should have served a ban for a few races at least as well as losing the constructors points
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Rob
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jul 17 2009
10:10 PM
I know it's a contentious issue regarding Kimi's title, but I said before he won it that after all that had happened regarding Mclaren and they were still allowed to compete, there was no way they were going to be allowed to win anything that year. I suspect, and I don't mean this in disrespect to Kimi, that Mclaren were told that they could continue to put on the show for the sake of the sponsors but that they would have to somehow 'lose' the title.

Didn't Lewis have some mysterious problem with a button in the deciding race and found himself cruising in pitlane mode for a significant amount of a lap and enough to take himself out of contention? Not the Button that he now has a problem with.

Several problems with your theory.

1. Lewis similar button pushing issues before that, I recall one race he had a horrid start, because he pushed the wrong button and didn't engage the launch control correctly.

2. Alonso damn near won the title as well, finishing 3rd in Brazil and 2nd in China. Now in China he was only some 3 seconds ahead of Massa, had there been an agreement to where McLaren weren't going to fight for the title wouldn't it have been on the safe side to make a bobble and let Massa through? Additionally what would have happened if Massa blew up in Brazil? Would Alonso have to have had a sudden issue from a car that had 0 mechanical failures all year?

3. If true that McLaren were planning to lose the title, why let Lewis win in Japan? Did they want to set their driver up for the greatest collapse in F1 history? It would have been MUCH easier to stuff the setup and have Lewis struggle with an ill performing car. Additionally Ferrari would presumably have been in on any McLaren planes to lose the titles, why go for the risk w/ Intermediate tires? Go with full wets taking less risk.
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Red Andy
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RJHSaints,Jul 18 2009
09:51 PM
Even so, you surely agree with me that TCG's scenario is highly unlikely to be true?

I agree with that, certainly, but the idea that McLaren were somehow harshly treated due to Spygate is both horrendously inaccurate and tedious. The "rogue employee" hypothesis has been thoroughly discredited. Remember that the WMSC initially decided to exclude McLaren from both 2007 and 2008, which would have been a more fitting punishment. They got off lightly in the end.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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Arf! Classic thread hi-jack!
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AndyW76
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Jul 20 2009
09:26 AM
Arf!  Classic thread hi-jack!

Yeah, I thought that spygate was put to bed 18 months ago.

<doh>

I guess some people have trouble letting things go.
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