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Mosley meets F1 teams in search of lastminute deal
Topic Started: Jun 11 2009, 05:07 PM (612 Views)
Steelstallions
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/8553232

Quote:
 
Formula One teams were meeting FIA president Max Mosley on Thursday for 11th-hour talks to try and end a standoff over entries for next season that could tear the sport apart.
Team sources confirmed the talks in London after the eight-member Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) met the previous day.
The governing International Automobile Federation is due to publish its official 2010 entry list on Friday, with champions Ferrari and others threatening to walk away unless the rules are rewritten.
Mosley wants to bring in new teams to help the sport overcome the credit crunch and the possible departure of some manufacturers.
The published 2010 rules have put forward an optional 40 million-pound ($65.62 million) budget cap, with those accepting it given greater technical freedom, to help new teams come in and existing ones cut costs.


I am beginning think the old git really does want them to leave in the misguided belief the 10 standard part teams will fill stadiums.
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Rob
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Perhaps I missed something along the way, but exactly is the greater technical freedom? Will the budget capped teams get bigger wings, more revs, wider tires?
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sportsman
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More revs
Greater KERS power.
Adjustable rear wing.
4 wheel drive.

Some others but that's the basics
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Pasta
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On the surface, what Max is offering teams to sign up makes no sense. Flexible wings!!! They banned that for a reason a long time ago. I am not sure if the reason was good (remember the Ferrari rear wings that flexed and became flatter on straight line speed) but ban it they did because it gave a technical advantage to one team.

Also there were rules introduced years ago to reduce speed, mainly because the
FIA thought that the speeds were becoming too great and the sport was no longer safe (for the drivers and sometimes spectators). That was the reason too for the elimination of slick tyres.

For Max to now say he will let some of these innovations back in, but only for the (little) teams who agree to the draconian cost cap is nothing more than blackmail. It is so very obvious and repugnant and heavy handed. It is also a little insensitive to the plight of the thousands of workers who would need to be fired should the teams agree to his proposals. Too much too soon, but he doesn't care. Maybe he doesn't need the money, inheriting perhaps money in Switzerland.

Just like Max. Use people. Make the girls dress up in uniforms. He is such a grossly arrogant person.

What I think is that there is a time for major decisions. The reality is that Bernie Ecclestone and the FIA have prospered phenominally over the years. They have benefitted greatly from the hundreds of millions - ney billions - the teams have spent every year. They have squeezed every nickle from the likes of Silverstone.

If FOTA decides that they will lose a year, then good decision. All the circuits globally would be happy, and legally able, to host races of FOTA.

If they want to save costs, then give more money back to the teams.

Another big issue is this constant tinkering with rules by one man is insane. On the one hand Max says he wants to reduce costs, but by changing rules with minimal notice, he is adding to costs.

I hope that FOTA stays the course. Get rid of Max. They should have done that a year ago when they had an excuse.
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Red Andy
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"Getting rid of Max" was never FOTA's call and it isn't FOTA's call now. What they can do is negotiate to ensure that the direction of F1 is shaped independently (for example by reinstating the F1 Commission) and not directed on what appear increasingly to be the whims of one person.

On flexible wings, they have been illegal for some 40 years (aerodynamic devices that move in relation to the sprung part of the car have been banned since then) but in 2006 the furore was over whether Ferrari's bendy rear wings constituted "moveable aerodynamic devices." The FIA responded by altering the procedures used to test for flexibility, in much the same way as they did for Ferrari's flexing floor the following year.

I believe that what we will see later today will be a massive compromise. Bernie holds all the cards - not the FIA, and not FOTA, because he is in control of the commercial rights. He knows it's in his interests to keep the warring parties together, and so that's what will happen.
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everythingoes
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I tend to agree that Bernie will broker some sort of compromise today. It may even be a provisional entry to the FOTA teams till its all thrashed out later.

I cannot believe that all the aspiring new teams are viable. I think USF1 is because they began preparing a while ago, before the whole budget cap thing came up. So they may be willing to go along with the FOTA team plan for a graded spend reduction plan. So too for the FOTA rebels, Williams & Force India, lack of a budget cap for 2010 cannot be a deal breaker for them either.

Assuming only one or two of the others have viable credentials, they might get a look in, but decide not to proceed this season if theres no budget cap. Probably Prodrive and Campos. So they might decide to wait a year till the budgets are lower, or not and use this year to get their bearings in the sport to be more competitive next season. They need a rookie season anyway.

what are we left with then? Potentially a grid comprising 13 teams, with the manufacturer teams committed for the next 3 years. Even if only USF1 decide to participate next season, you still have a full grid with one new team. I guess Bernie can live with that.
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Pasta
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Everything - your analysis is pretty good and better than anything I could come up with. Having said that, today's events show we might not know all. Or better said today's lack of events.

Ferrari are playing a legal card, stating that these new rules are being imposed in contradiction to that special contract Ferrari has. Nice card to play. I can only imagine the damages that might be claimed.

I want to go back to the simplicity of the issue. Bernie and his company make huge amounts of money. At the expense of spectators, sponsors and drivers and engineers. They have this franchise for what? Contracts and management of when the teams go where and what TV networks and so forth.

FOTA can replace that in six months - especially with the dynamic leadership of a good looking Italian guy not to mention Flavio et al now that they seem to agree and get along. Also with the financial resources of the big teams. Just because Toyota lost a few billion recently, they still have money.

The issue is that it remains the teams that spend the money, and Bernie that makes the money. It is, to me, completely hypocritical for Bernie to use Max to create this appearance of trying to save money etc., when they themselves do not offer to cut their profit sharing one iota.

Simple, right. But that is something they can't talk about in public, so they use Max and FIA.

To Red Andy I agree it was not FOTA's right or goal to get rid of Max, but at some point you need to be clear. He is hurting the sport and the business.

I think a lot needs to be clarified. Let me go back to this one issue. If they really want to encourage new teams and make it financially affordable, why does not the FIA and Bernie (and by the way, anyone who believes that Max only makes a dollar a year is absolutely ignorant) share a bit more of their money.

Honestly, I hope FOTA tells Bernie and the FIA to take a hike. Maybe have a demo season like a reality show. It is, in my view, time to push these two people to the wall. Bernie is the tougher one. He is smart. Max is just a bully.

One final thing. I am completely not a prude. I have lived in Asia for a long time. Seen and experienced a lot. But Max's sexual behavior was inexcusable on any front. It is one thing to hire a girl for companionship that includes sex, but this role playing thing is perverse. That is not a normal person we are dealing with here. And furthermore, the fact that he then takes the offensive should tell us all he might just be a completely evil person. He uses people like that, demeans them like that, and then has this arrogant attitude for people who criticize him or "infringed" on his rights to privacy as if they were the wrongdoers.

Just my opinion, but that is one evil piece of human flesh we are talking about.

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GordonB
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sportsman,Jun 11 2009
05:22 PM
More revs
Greater KERS power.
Adjustable rear wing.
4 wheel drive.

Some others but that's the basics

4 WHEEL DRIVE??????


Didn't hear that one before. My god. That'd shake things up a bit.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Pasta,Jun 12 2009
07:46 PM

Honestly, I hope FOTA tells Bernie and the FIA to take a hike. Maybe have a demo season like a reality show. It is, in my view, time to push these two people to the wall. Bernie is the tougher one. He is smart. Max is just a bully.

Don't underestimate Max, he's as smart as a whip and it suits him well for people to think he's an unintelligent bully.
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Steelstallions
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Petra Lead,Jun 13 2009
08:01 AM
Pasta,Jun 12 2009
07:46 PM

Honestly, I hope FOTA tells Bernie and the FIA to take a hike.  Maybe have a demo season like a reality show.  It is, in my view, time to push these two people to the wall.  Bernie is the tougher one.  He is smart.  Max is just a bully.

Don't underestimate Max, he's as smart as a whip and it suits him well for people to think he's an unintelligent bully.

He won't look so smart if FOTA pull out of next season and CVC drown in their F1 debt due to lack of sponsorship.
I mean for F sake, Brawn are having difficulty getting big money sponsorship, what are a grid of new teams going to bring in?

He will have killed the golden goose and those teams will find somewhere else to spend there allocated F1 hundreds of millions on.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Steelstallions,Jun 13 2009
08:31 AM

He won't look so smart if FOTA pull out of next season and CVC drown in their F1 debt due to lack of sponsorship.
I mean for F sake, Brawn are having difficulty getting big money sponsorship, what are a grid of new teams going to bring in?

He will have killed the golden goose and those teams will find somewhere else to spend there allocated F1 hundreds of millions on.

Of course you're right .... IF he kills the goose.

As things stand the goose is alive and kicking.

I don't think Max expects to get everything he is pushing for, I don't think he ever did, but I do think he'll get much, much more than the teams would have been willing to give had he started in a more moderate position.

Your argument regarding Bawn cuts both ways - it also serves as a perfect illustration of why costs need to be reduced dramatically.

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Pasta
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Not sure if the goose is alive and kicking. See this from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8098234.stm

ACEA has now endorsed FOTA for a breakaway series unless the FIA changes its management style (read no more Max). I really think he has gone way too far this time. There is no love lost. Remember after his sex scandal it was the major manufacturers which wanted him gone. It was only the large number of smaller guys that kept him in.

Even what I wrote previously the teams want a greater share in revenues and better transparency. ACEA has confirmed this.

There are also some pretty serious threats going on for FOTA to disclose things that the FIA might not want to be made public.

I have never seen the manufacturers, including or particularly Ferrari, so united.

I think changes for the good are coming soon.

By the way, maybe Max saying he is going to run for re-election has crystalized the opposition to him.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Pasta,Jun 13 2009
02:33 PM
Not sure if the goose is alive and kicking.  See this from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8098234.stm

ACEA has now endorsed FOTA for a breakaway series unless the FIA changes its management style (read no more Max). 
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Au contraire Pasta my dear fellow ... that is very much proof that the goose is indeed kicking.

I still think this will be resolved .... and that Max will end up with most of what he wants ..... I could be wrong .... time will tell...
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Steelstallions
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Petra Lead,Jun 13 2009
09:09 AM

Your argument regarding Bawn cuts both ways - it also serves as a perfect illustration of why costs need to be reduced dramatically.

Not really, F1 with the teams it has now plus a couple extra attracts big money. Without the big teams and certainly without cutting edge technology its not F1.

Its like expecting a tribute band to rake in the money the rolling stones can or even Girls Aloud.

Tribute bands or standard parts wannabes will never bring in the sponsor money the established bands teams structure do
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Pasta
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Petra Lead,Jun 13 2009
05:22 PM
Pasta,Jun 13 2009
02:33 PM
Not sure if the goose is alive and kicking.  See this from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8098234.stm

ACEA has now endorsed FOTA for a breakaway series unless the FIA changes its management style (read no more Max). 
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Au contraire Pasta my dear fellow ... that is very much proof that the goose is indeed kicking.

I still think this will be resolved .... and that Max will end up with most of what he wants ..... I could be wrong .... time will tell...

Dear Petra. First how did you know I was a fellow? And even if I am I could just be a wet noodle. In fact not a wet noodle. Been married far too many times.

Sorry spaghetti humour.

What I think is that this is different than before. The teams do not want to form a breakaway series, but they are pushing the FIA to the limit, and I believe they will bolt unless they get two things.

First is a more stable management. More predictable rules. Better revenue sharing. More cooperation, and less confrontation.

Second get rid of Mosley. November I believe it is. Coming pretty quick, and I think they have had enough of him.

As part of the vote to not remove him because of the sex scandal, he undertook to resign this year once his term expired. He promised that publicly and I think that was a big condition for people to support him. But now he has flip flopped and said he will run. No one else to stand against him if there is a big fight.

He is 69 and at that age some start to lose it. I believe he is past the best by date. His proposals are so draconian, and to date still unreasonably inflexible. He has made no real move to compromise, and I think he thinks he can create a new series without the big manufacturers names. We may not really think he is serious, but what if he is?

His proposals and changes have, over the last few years, really hurt the sport. Yes he did some good things for safety, but other than that his tenure has been dominated by conflict.

Time for him to go, and that is what the manufacturers are now pushing for, I think.

By the way there is a goose happening, but not the feathered type. Maybe now Max will understand how the girls feel.

hahaha. More noodle humour.
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