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Massa; Team Player?
Topic Started: Jun 9 2009, 09:04 AM (532 Views)
PiquetFan
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Lex,Jun 10 2009
06:41 AM
- benefited from nepotism to get his drive with Ferrari
- had been totally error-prone at Sauber
- had personal coaching and tutoring by MS to achieve any level of competence (and may still do)
- has dubious wet-weather skills and appears somewhat mentally fragile unless all is going well
- when he wins, it's from pole
- when everything is going ok, he's quick

Interesting points, Lex. I'll try to give a mild rebuttal of each of them.

- perhaps, but I believe that he's justified his selection notwithstanding;
- rookie errors certainly, but the most high profile incident I can recall is when his highly experienced team mate took him out;
- there is no doubt that his relationship with Schumi is very important to Massa, but which young driver would spurn the advice of someone with Schumi's talent and experience?;
- a lack of wet weather skills is a criticism that is often levelled at Massa despite some very good drives in the wet (IMHO Silverstone last year was an anomaly, as neither of the Ferrari drivers were able to shine);
- a large percentage of his wins have come from pole, it is true, but there have been a few stirring drives through the field as well;
- couldn't you say that of all the drivers?

As for the incident on Sunday, I didn't see it. I do believe, however, that Massa has shown himself to be very much a team player in the past. On the most important day in Kimi's F1 career he was there for him.

I like Massa. He's been able to put his wild past behind him, and has matured into an excellent driver. He's a top bloke too, as his response to losing the championship right at the end of last year showed.
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Lex
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good points PF :)

he's growing on me too I must admit, I just felt that there were more able drivers who may have been able to be more successful at Ferrari (but may have ben too challenging for MS ;) )
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RJHSaints
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Going back to the original point made by Alien SAP Fiend, all the drivers jostle for position at the start. I'll have a look at it later and post my thoughts (I recorded the race, typically it was a boring one as it always seems to be when I make an effort to record it). But I don't recall it being anything particularly unsportsmanlike, just typical team-mate battles which inevitably ensue when two team-mates are well-matched.

And yes, Massa has been outqualified in the last two races, but he's still only 3-4 in quali this season, and over the whole 2 and a half seasons is miles ahead in the quali count. What's more, he's ahead in the points count, wins count, pole position count.....just about everything, except fastest laps.

I don't believe Massa sees himself as the team leader in the same way maybe Alonso does at Renault. Certainly he has assumed more of a position of leadership in the last year or so, which is only natural given his increasing self-confidence and Kimi's disinclination towards open, physical leadership. But I don't feel that is a cynical attempt to build the team around him, and certainly I doubt Ferrari see it that way.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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RJHSaints,Jun 10 2009
03:30 PM
and over the whole 2 and a half seasons is miles ahead in the quali count. What's more, he's ahead in the points count, wins count, pole position count.....just about everything, except fastest laps.

And WDC's
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RJHSaints
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Fine, but one swallow doesn't make a summer. Raikkonen has, for last year and half, been fairly consistently outperformed by Massa. Fair play to him for winning the title, but in long-term comparison it is not very important.
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RJHSaints
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Also, I've just looked at the start again. As I see it, Raikkonen gets a poor getaway and is already behind Massa when Massa loses the back end slightly, and in correcting it drives into the path of Raikkonen. Certainly nothing he did deliberately.
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RJHSaints
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Actually, I watched it again last night and am now convinced you are talking nonsense (no offence).

Massa was clearly ahead of Kimi by the time of the incident. Furthermore, Raikkonen followed him through the first turn solidly in 6th place, and it was only his mistakes later in the lap that led to him being passed by Rosberg and subsequently hitting Alonso. It was absolutely not Massa's issue at all.
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Rob
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In all honesty (and I like Massa) what if he did chop Kimi on purpose? This is F1 not the Boy Scouts Fun League.
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Pasta
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In all honesty (and I am not a Massa fan) much can be learned from the Boy Scouts. On the one hand I would acknowledge that teammates need to focus first on winning, but on the other hand they are teammates. From what I saw Massa did a deliberate move on Kimi, and I am not sure it was necessary. It might have gained Massa nothing but probably cost Kimi a lot.

A question - while we have seen Kimi pass his teammates in the past, has he ever done a move like that?
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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Pasta,Jun 11 2009
09:08 PM
In all honesty (and I am not a Massa fan) much can be learned from the Boy Scouts. On the one hand I would acknowledge that teammates need to focus first on winning, but on the other hand they are teammates. From what I saw Massa did a deliberate move on Kimi, and I am not sure it was necessary. It might have gained Massa nothing but probably cost Kimi a lot.

A question - while we have seen Kimi pass his teammates in the past, has he ever done a move like that?

Massa made a comment about Kimi passing him at Spa last year, implying that Kimi'd been a bit more aggressive than he needed to be. Kimi's said nothing about Massa cutting him up on Sunday.

I've had another look at the start in iPlayer. Massa actually seems to be trying to get past Webber when he chops across Kimi. I suppose it is every man for himself at the start, but Kimi's race was somewhat compromised by having to avoid his team mate, even if it was inadvertant.
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Pasta
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I didn't record and maybe Massa was more interested in a move on Webber than cutting off Kimi. But for sure it hurt Kimi. I would accept your interpretation.

The thing is Kimi never says anything bad about anyone other than MS, and even then...

I remember when Kimi was a title contender vs Alonso, winning a race (sorry can't remember which one) and Montoya was in second place and as such enabling Kimi to get four points relative. JPM made a stupid mistake passing a back marker, which took him off and allowed Alonso to claim second. The pit to car radio with Kimi was so interesting. Kimi said nothing emotional. Just asked what happened. He never said a thing afterwards.

As much as I like many others would like to shake him and make him speak or show some emotion, that is just not him. I do think he is a far better team player than Massa. Sorry I just don't like Massa. Don't know why.
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RJHSaints
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Raikkonen not reacting to something doesn't make him a team player. It just means he doesn't show much emotion.

Remember last year when it was clear to everyone watching that Massa was the man to bet on for the championship, and Kimi showed a decidedly lukewarm approach to helping his team-mate even though Massa had done so for him the year before?

As I said, not a model team player. But at least he doesn't stir the pot like Alonso.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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RJHSaints,Jun 13 2009
04:07 PM
Raikkonen not reacting to something doesn't make him a team player. It just means he doesn't show much emotion.

Remember last year when it was clear to everyone watching that Massa was the man to bet on for the championship, and Kimi showed a decidedly lukewarm approach to helping his team-mate even though Massa had done so for him the year before?

As I said, not a model team player. But at least he doesn't stir the pot like Alonso.

Massa was about as enthusiastic about helping Kimi the year before. What driver would be (other than Massa when he was driving for Schumi)?
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