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Fifth Best driver in F1; ever...
Topic Started: Jun 9 2009, 04:51 AM (799 Views)
Rob
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I did this once on the beeb, and it got some intresting responses. Generally when you talk of the top driver in the history of F1 4 names seem to come up far more than any others Fangio, Clark, Senna, and Shumi. Maybe not in that order but I think these are the top 4 guys since 1950, but there seems to be no concensus on fifth. I would submit Brabham, Prost or Ascari, leaning toward Ascari since he did take two titles agains Fangio and had the single best season in F1 IMO winning every race he entered in 52 and 5 of 8 in 53 (excluding the Indy 500).

Thoughts?
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PiquetFan
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Having seen Jackie Stewart in his prime I think you should probably add him to your short list. He was never my favourite driver, but he was the dominant driver in a very competitive era. Of the other multiple champions, I think that Niki Lauda is up there as well, not least because he (almost literally) came back from the dead.

Ascari was exceptional. However, he took at least one of his titles when Fangio was out for a significant part of the season. Fangio's autobiography makes it clear that JMF regarded Ascari as his most worthy and dangerous adversary.

The fact that Brabham was leading and winning races in his final season (1970) at the age of 40+ shows what an exceptional driver he was. He was arguably fortunate to be in the best car in his first two WDC seasons, and his WDC in '66 may be seen in a similar vein. He didn't seem to mind terribly being beaten by a younger team mate (Hulme in '67, Ickx in '69), and is a real gent.

My vote for the 'last' of the top five goes to the Professor. He never got the visceral support that Senna got because of his style, but he was every bit as good as Senna in getting results in the same machinery.
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Red Andy
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I think Ascari probably belongs higher even than fifth place. He only won two titles, but did it in really dominant fashion. Plus if you look at stats like % of races won, % of laps led etc, it is clear that Ascari was one of the dominant forces of his time in F1. Plus, as PF says, Fangio always said he regarded Ascari as his most gifted rival.

In addition, given that he didn't participate in a full season in 1954 and was killed in 1955, who's to say that Fangio would have been so dominant had things been different for Ascari?
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Craze_b0i
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I recall Murray Walker doing his top 10, he put Fangio 1, Prost 2, Senna 3. (Admittedly this before Schumi won all his titles)
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ELUSIVEJIM
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Rob,Jun 9 2009
04:51 AM
I did this once on the beeb, and it got some intresting responses. Generally when you talk of the top driver in the history of F1 4 names seem to come up far more than any others Fangio, Clark, Senna, and Shumi. Maybe not in that order but I think these are the top 4 guys since 1950, but there seems to be no concensus on fifth. I would submit Brabham, Prost or Ascari, leaning toward Ascari since he did take two titles agains Fangio and had the single best season in F1 IMO winning every race he entered in 52 and 5 of 8 in 53 (excluding the Indy 500).

Thoughts?

For me its very difficult to say as i have never seen Fangio,Clark or Ascari ever race <no>

I will always say Senna as the best ever from when i watched F1 but this is my personal taste.

Think every era has the driver that stands out but to place any of these drivers as the all time No1 is impossible.

M Schumacher like Loeb in the WRC are the drivers in both sports that have won the most Championships but if you ask ppl who you feels is the best drivers you do not get everyone saying M Schumacher or Loeb.

For me its Senna and Colin Mcrae but they were not as successful as Schumacher nor Loeb.

I feel that all great drivers should all be celebrated rather than judged on era's.
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Norbert
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Well, Ralf would probably tell you he was, but.....

It's very hard to quantify. What about Niki Lauda? Runner up in 1976 despite racing with bandages on his head after his awful near-death crash? Or Gilles Villeneuve? Who knows what he might have achieved had he not been killed?

Another thing to cloud it is that titles don't necessarily mean ultimate speed/talent. Take a look at this year. Button is driving virtually flawlessly and has taken maximum advantage of his car. However, I would reckon that Hamilton, Alonso and Raikonnen would hand his backside to him on a plate in the same car on the same strategy. This does not mean he won't be a worthy champion, however it highlights the difficulty in establishing how you determine 'best'. What if Button had gone to Ferrari in the early 2000s? Maybe he'd have had multiple titles and we'd be talking abouyt how great Button was rather than Schumacher. Although I think Schumi works rather better than Butty.... lol

You know what? After thinking about it, you need consistancy, the ability to drag performances out of reluctant teams and cars, etc. I hate the bloke to death, but you cannot deny his ability to get results from adversity, although he does sometimes lose the plot. My fifth place vote goes to the one and only monobrowed WDC, Fernando Alonso.
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AndyW76
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Some people may laugh at me for saying this but, what about Mansell. OK, he didn't win as much as the others but look at the year when he excelled and he didn't keep breaking down. He was at least as good as Prost. A good case point is comparing 92 to 93. Mansell dominated in 92 in a way that only Schumacher has done in 2002, and wrapped up the WDC by Hungary. In 93, prost, with a subservient teammate, made a meal of winning the WDC. Also, when they were teammates in 1990, Prost had the ear of the team and Mansell still out paced him on several occasions (most notably at silverstone, to which Prost nicked mansell's car).

Also, a great demonstration of mansell's ability was his great years in the 80s, where he was teamed up with piquet, himself a multiple champion, yet Mansell dominated him most of the time.

In addition, Mansell did somethings that no-one else could do in and F1 car. Remember Mexico 1990? Or Silverstone 1987?
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ELUSIVEJIM
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Biggest problem is it all depends on what car you are driving.

Not many people would have ever thought Button and RB would be 1-2 in the Championship with Button looking like the 2009 Drivers Championship.

Damon Hill and Mansell for me again were in the best car at the best time and this is why they one their Championships.

Yes of course you have to be a good driver but all F1 drivers are good.

Give Piquet Jnr a Brawn and i bet he would be as good as RB at least.

To be honest M Schumacher was an amazing driver but the risk he took joining Ferrari in 1996 paid off big time in the long run.

Without the car NO driver can win a Championship but a GREAT driver can get a few good finishes in a bad car

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TheCompleteGuitarist
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I think Damon also showed what he could do in a not so great car.
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blackdog
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Probably Prost or Stewart, but the consensus of those around at the time would undoubtedly say Stirling Moss.
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Jack
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Schumacher and Fangio are OK, but I disagree with Clark and Senna. They are considered myths mainly because their tragic death on the track.

Prost and Stewart (among others) deserve much more credit in my opinion.
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Whity
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Jack,Jun 11 2009
04:18 AM
Schumacher and Fangio are OK, but I disagree with Clark and Senna. They are considered myths mainly because their tragic death on the track.

Prost and Stewart (among others) deserve much more credit in my opinion.

Considering clark has a win% of ~34 while prost and JS have ~25 and ~27 respectively i would say that JC justifies his position above those two great drivers.

Senna has a win% of ~25 (almost identical to prost) so i would agree that he is sometimes considered higher due to his untimely death. However he is at least on a par with prost and JS.
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AndyW76
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Whity,Jun 11 2009
10:37 AM
Jack,Jun 11 2009
04:18 AM
Schumacher and Fangio are OK, but I disagree with Clark and Senna. They are considered myths mainly because their tragic death on the track.

Prost and Stewart (among others) deserve much more credit in my opinion.

Considering clark has a win% of ~34 while prost and JS have ~25 and ~27 respectively i would say that JC justifies his position above those two great drivers.

Senna has a win% of ~25 (almost identical to prost) so i would agree that he is sometimes considered higher due to his untimely death. However he is at least on a par with prost and JS.

Clark was head and shoulders above the rest in his day. He nearly always won when the lotus held together.
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RJHSaints
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Jun 9 2009
06:45 PM
I think Damon also showed what he could do in a not so great car.

He almost won the 1997 Hungarian Grand Prix in an Arrows!
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Rob
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AndyW76,Jun 11 2009
08:20 AM
Whity,Jun 11 2009
10:37 AM
Jack,Jun 11 2009
04:18 AM
Schumacher and Fangio are OK, but I disagree with Clark and Senna. They are considered myths mainly because their tragic death on the track.

Prost and Stewart (among others) deserve much more credit in my opinion.

Considering clark has a win% of ~34 while prost and JS have ~25 and ~27 respectively i would say that JC justifies his position above those two great drivers.

Senna has a win% of ~25 (almost identical to prost) so i would agree that he is sometimes considered higher due to his untimely death. However he is at least on a par with prost and JS.

Clark was head and shoulders above the rest in his day. He nearly always won when the lotus held together.

Additionally Clark did have wins outside of F1 (Indy 500 Champ as a rookie IIRC), plus he was one of Fangio's favorite drivers.

Not everyone will agree, but like I said if we were all to post our top 5 drivers I think majority would all include Fangio, Clark, Senna and Shumi.
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