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Mark Webber - Most underated driver
Topic Started: Jun 8 2009, 08:39 PM (910 Views)
Rams
Chief Engineer
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I've always rated Webber as a good driver in the Jenson Button category, so it's come as no surprise to me to see him beating Vettel. But he seems to suffer the same fate as Heidfeld, in that no-one sees him as a potential challenger to Button and the Brawns <huh>

Let's have a look at the 2009 season to date.

Australia: Vettel had a 50/50 collision with Kubica and Webber got punted off by Barrichello. Call that a no score.

Malaysia: Despite a few dodgy tyre calls Webber comes home 6th, Vettel spins off. 1-0 Webber.

China: Vettel leads home Red Bull 1-2. 1 all.

Bahrain: Vettel second, but Webber clearly blocked in qualifying so unfair comparision. Still 1 all.

Spain: Webber and Vettel both on 2 stop strategies, Webber finishes ahead. 2-1 Webber.

Monaco: Webber fifth, another unforced error from Vettel. 3-1 Webber.

Turkey: Webber second and Vettel third. Vettel claims time lost behind Button whilst on low fuel cost him second, he estimates this to be 4 seconds. However, he came out after his third stop 7 seconds behind Webber, so this would appear to be wrong. 4-1 Webber.

So in conclusion, had Sutil not done his bizarre blocking manourve on Webber and had the Malaysian race been completed Webber would clearly be ahead of Vettel in the standings. It's beginning to look ominous that Webber will be Red Bull's best hope to challenge Button.
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Rob
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Rams,Jun 8 2009
03:39 PM
Malaysia: Despite a few dodgy tyre calls Webber comes home 6th, Vettel spins off.  1-0 Webber.

That's a bit unfair Vettel was very unfortunate to be caught out in the worst part on the rain on inters and just happen to spin where he couldn't recover. No worse for luck than Webber being blocked in quali.

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Turkey: Webber second and Vettel third. Vettel claims time lost behind Button whilst on low fuel cost him second, he estimates this to be 4 seconds. However, he came out after his third stop 7 seconds behind Webber, so this would appear to be wrong. 4-1 Webber.


But Vettel was closing on Webber quickly and the team told Vettel to hold station, the team saying Webber was faster when the time showed this certainly was not the case.
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Rams
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Rob,Jun 8 2009
09:56 PM
But Vettel was closing on Webber quickly and the team told Vettel to hold station, the team saying Webber was faster when the time showed this certainly was not the case.

Given that Vettel couldn't pass Button when he had a much lighter car and was about 0.7 seconds a lap faster, it is extremely unlikely he would have been able to pass Webber when he was only a couple of tenths a lap faster due to fresher tyres.

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That's a bit unfair Vettel was very unfortunate to be caught out in the worst part on the rain on inters and just happen to spin where he couldn't recover. No worse for luck than Webber being blocked in quali.

Ultimately 15 of 19 drivers (exlcuding Kubica engine problem) were classified. So I would strongy dispute saying it was undriveable. The rain was the same for everyone. Sutil didn't block the other 18 drivers!
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Red Andy
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I think Webber has done an excellent job this season, certainly more consistent than Vettel who I thought would edge him. When you consider that Mark has come back from a serious injury in the off-season it's remarkable that he has done as well as he has.

The comparison with Heidfeld is a valid one. The trouble is that neither driver is a headline-grabber like their respective teammates. Were one or the other of them to win a GP I'm sure that would change, however.
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Rob
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Rams,Jun 8 2009
04:15 PM
Rob,Jun 8 2009
09:56 PM
But Vettel was closing on Webber quickly and the team told Vettel to hold station, the team saying Webber was faster when the time showed this certainly was not the case.

Given that Vettel couldn't pass Button when he had a much lighter car and was about 0.7 seconds a lap faster, it is extremely unlikely he would have been able to pass Webber when he was only a couple of tenths a lap faster due to fresher tyres.


I guess the team prevented us from ever knowing.


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That's a bit unfair Vettel was very unfortunate to be caught out in the worst part on the rain on inters and just happen to spin where he couldn't recover. No worse for luck than Webber being blocked in quali.

Ultimately 15 of 19 drivers (exlcuding Kubica engine problem) were classified. So I would strongy dispute saying it was undriveable. The rain was the same for everyone. Sutil didn't block the other 18 drivers!


You know getting caught out at the right moment in the rain can ruin any driver's day. Red Bull (probably along with Vettel) chose to get on inters right before the heavens opened up. Vettel was on inters at the wrong time. We've seen what he can do in the wet, so I would put the spin down to unfortunate circumstance rather than any fault of Vettel.
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flood1
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I think the fact that this topic has good traction indicates that Weber is having his best season ever and the jury is still out on how Vettel and he compare in the long run. Being an old guy I always have sympahies with the veterans, especially those who, for one reason or another, have never been in the best cars.

Button and Hamilton both had the same over-the-top press as rookies. It is interesting that their status has changed for only one reason. The quality of their cars has swapped.

Personally, I would prefer Weber to top Vettel, but I would not put cash money on it! We shall see.
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Monty
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If the team had just kept Vettel on a 2 stop he would have easily finished second, in no race has Webber been genuinely quicker. He is slower in every section of qualifying usually and bar a few daft Vettel errors he would be getting well beaten this season.
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flood1
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Vettel was never on a two stop. They didn't change to a two stop, they stayed on the original plan. Vettel said so himself. If you need proof, see Vettel's comments on Autosport after the race. Here's the link:Click

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"When we have seen Jenson was not behind us, I thought we were switching to two stops," said Vettel.


True about quali, but Weber is usually heavier by a couple of laps of fuel. This means Vettel gets the preferred strategy as they cannot both have the same fuel load and pit on the same lap. One of them gets preference on strategy and I think it is Vettel.

The chosen one, as someone else has said. I really don't know who is faster. There is not enough evidence, yet. But, Vettel screwed himself by running off course and screwed his strategy. Weber did not. Hum...........Vettle's foul up was his own.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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I guess Red Bull were a bit peed off when they thought Webber was Austria and turned out to be Australian with one B too many in his name.
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flood1
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I thought he was this guy -

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More than any other propagandist, Mark Weber, 45, embodies the Holocaust-denial movement. An articulate, media-savvy spokesperson with a master's degree in History from Indiana University, Weber got his start in the radical right in 1978, when he took the position of news editor for National Vanguard, a publication of the neo-Nazi National Alliance.

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PiquetFan
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I agree that Webber is under-rated. I thought his drive at Barcelona was superlative, and he comfortably beat Vettel on the day. I'm not sure that I agree that the present score is 4-1 to Webbo though, as Rams has claimed.

Great thread <thumbsup>
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GordonB
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I don't believe Webber is under-rated.

He's always been a one-lap specialist in Quali, wheras Coulthard was always dreadful in Quali. I believe that this is what lead to Webbers comfortable besting of Coulthard on most occasions.

This season it seems clear to me that Vettel is fundamentally capable of driving the car faster than Webber, but that he is still a bit "green" and makes more mistakes. Does that make Webber underrated? I don't think so, but give it a season and I think Vettel will be consistently ahead of him. The fact that Webber broke his leg at the end of last year has probably affected things too.

Don't get me wrong, though; I like the guy - he usually tells it straight.
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Lex
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I've always rated Webber and believe that he'd never really had the drive he deserves - until this year.

I've a feeling that this year, he'll get his first win - on Sunday, part of me was hoping that Jens may have had a smooth spin to allow Mark to pip him (but was still over the moon that he won :D)

I agree that Seb is still a bit green - hope the adulation doesn't go to his head too much (I can see the similarities between him and a young Button!)
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Monty
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PiquetFan,Jun 9 2009
04:42 AM
I agree that Webber is under-rated. I thought his drive at Barcelona was superlative, and he comfortably beat Vettel on the day. I'm not sure that I agree that the present score is 4-1 to Webbo though, as Rams has claimed.

Great thread <thumbsup>

It really wasnt, he only beat Vettel because he was stuck behind Massa for the whole race and they gave Webber the strategy to jump them both in the final round of stops. His pace really wasnt that impressive.
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Red Andy
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flood1,Jun 9 2009
02:04 AM
Vettel was never on a two stop. They didn't change to a two stop, they stayed on the original plan. Vettel said so himself. If you need proof, see Vettel's comments on Autosport after the race. Here's the link:Click

Red Bull definitely need work in the strategy department. They need someone who brings to race strategy what Adrian Newey brings to design. I'll say it again - Mike Gascoyne!
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