Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Pit Lane. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
DID LEWIS GAIN AN ADVANTAGE TO PASS KIMI???
YES 13 (38.2%)
NO 15 (44.1%)
NOT SURE 6 (17.6%)
Total Votes: 34
LEWIS SPA; DEMOTED TO 3RD
Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 08:20 PM (589 Views)
ELUSIVEJIM
Member Avatar

Forum Host
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd2n1HxkRy8
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
I'm not certain. Lewis clearly let Kimi fully past him, which is all the rules say he has to do, but certainly he could have backed off more to make sure there was no doubt. To my mind it was fair, and certainly I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, but let's not forget that the stewards have access to all sorts of data that we do not.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I'm not sure just why McLaren/Hamilton fans are really so angry ... I mean this decision, at this point in the season is pure manner from heaven...

Come the end of season... Hamilton wins... it will be 'we won it even against the odds'.. or He looses... then it will be 'Boo, Hiss...we was robbed'...

But either way they get all the ingredients to keep them busy over the lean winter months.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheCompleteGuitarist
Driver
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
John,Sep 7 2008
11:17 PM
I'm not sure just why McLaren/Hamilton fans are really so angry ... I mean this decision, at this point in the season is pure manner from heaven...

Come the end of season... Hamilton wins... it will be 'we won it even against the odds'.. or He looses... then it will be 'Boo, Hiss...we was robbed'...

But either way they get all the ingredients to keep them busy over the lean winter months.

John, the cynic in me is guessing that IF against these odds, Lewis does manage to win, some other infringement/objection will raise it's ugly head and take that away from Lewis too.

On today's penalty I am 50/50.

Awesome race, great to see Kimi, socks pulled up for once and some other infield stuff going on and last few laps in the rain were fun(ny).

The penalty ruined a great race and there seems to be some sort of decision inbalance, considering the last race where two similar incidents albeit in different series were treated completely differently. One having a huge impact on the race, the other tickling the bank balance of the driver.

I'm not a Lewis fan as such so I am not arguing for him. only to see more consistency. The F1 authorities are doing a pathetic job considering how much money is invested in this sport.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
dazzerjp
Member Avatar
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
John,Sep 8 2008
08:17 AM
I'm not sure just why McLaren/Hamilton fans are really so angry ... I mean this decision, at this point in the season is pure manner from heaven...

Come the end of season... Hamilton wins... it will be 'we won it even against the odds'.. or He looses... then it will be 'Boo, Hiss...we was robbed'...

But either way they get all the ingredients to keep them busy over the lean winter months.

There you go John, words from your own mouth.

To you, a farce is drama.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Norbert
Member Avatar

Admin
I'm not sure. He probably did, but he also (only just) gave the place back. As with so many things, the letter of the law was just about adhered to, but the spirit may well have been broken (I suspect that before the race had finished Kimi was breaking into some spirit too.... <pissed> ).

A very firm 'dunno' from me.

Anyway, we know how much the FIA like the title to go down to the wire with a bit of drama in the last few races. They started that trend in 1989.....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Norbert
Member Avatar

Admin
TheCompleteGuitarist,Sep 8 2008
01:51 AM
The F1 authorities are doing a pathetic job considering how much money is invested in this sport.

Money is the whole problem. Like any sport where money gets a foothold, everything becomes a life or death situation, instead of a sport. When this championship started the teams and drivers raced because it was fun, daring etc.... If the stewards made a dodgy decision they'd probably settle the score in the pub afterwards. Now we get espionage, lawsuits, TV rights deciding the tracks and an FIA president who likes to spend the day with a harem of high-class prostitutes (if there is such a thing). Bring back the old days, when men were men, cars were cars, and racetracks actually had decent corners on them!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
AndyW76
Member Avatar
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Lewis did exactly what the rules require. The rules don't state how much time he has to give up etc. they only state that he must relinquish the place. The stewards have no grounds for punishment, especially after examination of the telemetary, which showed Kimi was 6KPH faster over the S/F line than Lewis. I agree that he got back on the attack quickly, but seeing as the rules don't actually stipulate how soon he can start attacking again, there is no case to answer, unless the stewards are making up rules as they go along.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Alien_SAP_Fiend
Member Avatar
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
11:33 AM
The rules don't state how much time he has to give up etc. they only state that he must relinquish the place.

Not exactly, they say that any advantage gained must be handed back.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
AndyW76
Member Avatar
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
11:36 AM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
11:33 AM
The rules don't state how much time he has to give up etc. they only state that he must relinquish the place.

Not exactly, they say that any advantage gained must be handed back.

Which he did. Before the corner, Lewis had his nose ahead of kimi, after the corner, Lewis backed off and let kimi back past (and was 6KPH slower than Kimi over the S/F line, hence lewis was losing time to kimi at that moment). It was approaching the end of the S/F straight when Lewis was all over kimi's arse. May be Lewis should have been patient and waited until the next turn but kimi was so slow at La Source that Lewis had little reason not to attack. Tell me that anyone else wouldn't have done the same.

There is about as much feasibility in this penalty as there was in Alonso's qualifying penalty at Monza in 2006.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheCompleteGuitarist
Driver
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
11:36 AM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
11:33 AM
The rules don't state how much time he has to give up etc. they only state that he must relinquish the place.

Not exactly, they say that any advantage gained must be handed back.

Wasn't Lewis actually ahead going into the Chicane?

I think he was.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
timmadigan
Member Avatar
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The problem is that the rules are a bit light on what they mean about 'giving the spot back'.
Yes, Lewis was a nose ahead but only because he was carrying too much speed into the corner. You can't use that as the basis for making a call.

BUT, Lewis gave the spot back as stated by the rules. Now, he did so by slowing just enough to get into Kimi's draft and use it to easily regain the spot but the rules aren't clear enough to say if this was enough or not. You'd really have to go on precedent and I'm not sure we really have any (at least any that I can quickly think of).

Personally, I don't think it's enough. Making a move like that isn't really 'removing the advantage' since you're using the fact you're in the lead to setup regaining the spot - reduce just enough to let him pass and jump into the draft to use that regain the spot moments later. Hard to think that's 'handing back the advantage'. But that's my call - the rules aren't clear if it's enough and, once again, they need to clarify the rules so EVERYONE can understand and agree (is it a corner, time, etc...), not just the local stewards.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
timmadigan,Sep 8 2008
03:26 PM
You'd really have to go on precedent and I'm not sure we really have any (at least any that I can quickly think of).

Suzuka 2005. Alonso was asked by the stewards to yield a position gained by cutting a chicane twice, because the first time they deemed that he hadn't surrendered the advantage properly.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
12:42 PM
There is about as much feasibility in this penalty as there was in Alonso's qualifying penalty at Monza in 2006.

The problem with Alonso's penalty was that, although it was pedantism in the extreme, it was legitimate under the rules at the time. The rules did not say that a driver had to deliberately impede someone else for a penalty to apply, only that such an impediment had to happen. The data available to the stewards indicated that the aero wake from Alonso's car did adversely affect Massa, even though Alonso was travelling 90 metres in front of Massa and couldn't have gotten out of Massa's way if he had tried, so powerful is the aerodynamic influence of a leading car over a following one.

I suspect that this penalty is a similar case. The stewards must be able to justify the penalty under the rules, using the data they have (and, I hasten to add, we do not), or they would not have imposed the sanction on Hamilton. Although very much against the spirit of what is reasonable and fair in F1, I suspect the penalty will stand because, as the rules are worded, Hamilton was indeed transgressing - assuming there is even an appeal, which seems to be in doubt at the moment.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Norbert
Member Avatar

Admin
TheCompleteGuitarist,Sep 8 2008
12:42 PM
Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
11:36 AM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
11:33 AM
The rules don't state how much time he has to give up etc. they only state that he must relinquish the place.

Not exactly, they say that any advantage gained must be handed back.

Wasn't Lewis actually ahead going into the Chicane?

I think he was.

He wasn't. He was briefly ahead of Kimi by a whisker, by as soon as they started turning in, he backed off a little and scarpered up the runoff. Before Lewis left the track Kimi was ahead. Only just, but still ahead.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Join the millions that use us for their forum communities. Create your own forum today.
« Previous Topic · Formula 1 · Next Topic »
Add Reply