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| Hamilton demoted to 3rd | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 04:16 PM (5,649 Views) | |
| ELUSIVEJIM | Sep 7 2008, 10:20 PM Post #106 |
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100% correct |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Sep 7 2008, 10:41 PM Post #107 |
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Driver
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Good job we don't use MS as a yard stick for implementing this rule then. |
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| dazzerjp | Sep 8 2008, 03:15 AM Post #108 |
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Chief Engineer
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not correct. the guy in charge is the personal assistant of Mad Max. "I would be surprised if there was a penalty," Hamilton said before the stewards' decision. "This is motor racing and if there is a penalty something is wrong. It was fair and square, it would be absolutely wrong if that happens, but we know what they're like." Apparently there was a yellow flag at the corner where the BMW went off and Kimi overtook LH. |
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| Rob | Sep 8 2008, 05:53 AM Post #109 |
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Wow, I didn't get on line from the tim the race ended till about 30 mintues ago, and wow. This is a really gray area. There are really 100 different way to look at this situation. And to be completely honest, I'm actually undecided on this leaning more toward bad call. But a few questions/'issues remain unanswered or undiscussed here. For one I cannot say I know the chapter and verse on the regulation, I checked the 08 sporting regs on the FIA site and wasn't able to find anything on cutting corners/chicanes, so if someone has that information it would be greatly appreciated. Is the rule that you have to give back the position or you have to give up the advantage? I honestly don't know so if anyone knows the rule on it a link would be appreciated. More on this, I looked at the video on youtube (damn you Jim, I was prepared to say bad call) as close to frame by frame as I can get (ultimately this will probably end up being soemthing really bad for board harmony, because I saw some thing on it I didn't when watchig the race) it really looks like that Lewis was slightly ahead of Kimi before the corner (Lewis gets a nose out just before the ING sign 50 meters to the corners), but Kimi gets the position back (again by a nose) just before the corner, so Kimi has position. From the video just over 16 seconds in, is when Lewis cuts the chicane. The problem is when Lewis takes is off course trip, Kimi not coming in on Lewis, but is taking the racing line (nearly the identical racing line Lewis took in qualifying see here), and Lewis is behind with two choices, cut the chicane or back off. He cut the chicane as opposed to backing off. Now the advantage is gained in that if he had backed off his front wing would have been in Kimi's disturbed air, losing front down force, causing Lewis to probably run wide/understeering, or at least have a less than optimal exit. Cutting the chicane and letting Kimi back in front on the straight Lewis gets to tuck right back under Kimi's rear and get a tow, making an overtaking move easier/possible, as opposed to being 2 or more car lengths behind Kimi. If that is what the stewards reasoned I cannot say since I'm not a steward. As far as a penalty for Kimi passing under yellow, I don't now exactly where he passed Lewis, but I think Lewis was off the track at the time, so that might make a difference, other that that I cannot say, but generally the FIA doesn't give penalties for drivers who DNF. On a personal note this is one of those issues that could really go either way. In all honestly a penality could have been called, or not. Just the same it could get overturned on appeal or not. Either way I'm not going to complain because I think this call is such a thin line. The stewards' decision is much more justitifed than Alonso's penalty from Monza 06. Obviously, because the call is that close, the opinions on this will be greatly divided. Some will flame those who think it was legit, some will flame those who don't think it is legit. Hell I think it would be correct either way, and I'm fully expecting to be flamed by someone before this thread is done. So far this thread has not been one of our worst, but there are two things I will invite the people on this bored to do. First look at the video frame by frame and then make your final decision. Second is think, really think, take as much time as you need, but ponder this, had the situation been reversed or had a Williams (instead of a Ferrari) and Red Bull (instead of a Mclaren) been involved in the same situation, would you argure so much that the decision was right or wrong? |
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| PiquetFan | Sep 8 2008, 06:41 AM Post #110 |
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Driver
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That's a great post, Rob As far as flaming is concerned, I would hope that all our members will play the post and not the poster
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| everythingoes | Sep 8 2008, 06:51 AM Post #111 |
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When I saw the incident, for a little moment, I felt that perhaps Lewis has not backed off enough when giving the place back to Kimi. But, since he had given the place back, technically, I guessed he was in the clear and had no problem with Lewis gaining it back and going on to win the race. The simple fact is that in the wet the Lewis/ Mclaren package was better than the Kimi/ Ferrari combo. Despite being disappointed with the fact that Kimi binned it, I had no issue with the Lewis win. I thought he deserved it. Then when I saw it flash the incident was being investigated, I went 'oh no', but, I still thought nothing would come out of it. I only saw the news of the penalty this morning when i woke up and went Now, having looked at the footage posted by JIM, it only reiterates my initial feeling that maybe Lewis could have backed off a bit more, but still think the penalty is maybe uncalled for. Eventually, this will all boil down to an individuals viewpoint and personal preferences when deciding which way the decision could/ should have gone. Its that subjective an issue. I would have had no problem if Lewis had been allowed to keep the win and won't grudge it if the decision is eventually reversed. The only thing I have objection to is having to see Ron's mug during the presentation
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| dazzerjp | Sep 8 2008, 06:52 AM Post #112 |
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Chief Engineer
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Sadly, the last of the Ferrari apologists. As to; if a different car was involved would the argument be so fierce. ???? if it was a williams, then there probably wouldnt be a penalty. Thats a very basic part of this debate. The only thing of note about the post is the never-ending ability of Ferrari fans to justify favouritism. |
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| stradlin24 | Sep 8 2008, 06:59 AM Post #113 |
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Team Boss
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we knew it was coming though mate... |
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| Norbert | Sep 8 2008, 07:04 AM Post #114 |
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Having said that, if it was Massa who'd cut the chicane, there'd be the usual protagonists calling for a disqualification...... I think Rob's got it summed up perfectly. |
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| stradlin24 | Sep 8 2008, 07:05 AM Post #115 |
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Team Boss
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but he wouldn't have got a penalty!!! we can call all we want, the fact is, the other way round, it wouldn't have been a penalty i know it, you know it, we all know it |
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| Norbert | Sep 8 2008, 07:06 AM Post #116 |
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| Red Andy | Sep 8 2008, 07:14 AM Post #117 |
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What I want to know is whether McLaren are actually entitled to an appeal. Autosport says that Hamilton was given a drive-through penalty - under normal circumstances, a drive-through cannot be appealed because it is irreversible. So even though the drive-through was applied after the race (and hence turned into a 25-second time penalty), does that mean that there is no right of appeal? |
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| PiquetFan | Sep 8 2008, 07:20 AM Post #118 |
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I don't know whether Macca have a right to appeal. The question is, would it be correct to allow the appeal? For me, the penalty imposed here is a huge issue. Rob has pointed out the grey areas rather well in his lengthy post. IMHO it would be better if an appeal was allowed under these circumstances, not least because justice needs to be seen to be done. |
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| stradlin24 | Sep 8 2008, 07:32 AM Post #119 |
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Team Boss
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go on, bury your head if you want a tainted sport then fine.... damage was done this weekend |
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| Norbert | Sep 8 2008, 07:32 AM Post #120 |
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I guess that if the 25s were actually in deferance to a DT, then Lewis was lucky that it didn't happen earlier, or he may well have ended up a lot worse than third. Plus, anyone remember what happened to Senna when he appealed his DQ in Japan in 1989? Balestre threw the book at him - the DQ was upheld, he was fined $100,000 (still not a great deal as he was alleged to earn £4M at the time) and has a six month suspended ban for dodgy driving througout the season. Anyway, I thought the three lap limit in bringing a car in for a DT was so the team could clarify the reason and protest their innocence? I think McLaren would be wise not to persue this one. I can't remember the last time an appeal succeeded, and it's not out of the question that they'll turn around and bash them some more for good measure. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't feel the right to appeal, just that the FIA don't like people questioning them and tend to get stroppy (typical French). Of course, the championship is now totally ruined. If Hamilton wins, it will be because he's beaten the system. If Massa wins, it will be because Hamilton was cheated. Both drivers have put in performances this year worthy of winning the championship, although they've both dropped equally bad clangers - Hamilton's pit lane crash in Montreal and Massa's shockingly crap British GP ballet. Quite honestly I think it would be better if neither of them won as a result, but somehow I don't think that either Robert K or Kimi will be catching either of them.... |
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When I saw the incident, for a little moment, I felt that perhaps Lewis has not backed off enough when giving the place back to Kimi. But, since he had given the place back, technically, I guessed he was in the clear and had no problem with Lewis gaining it back and going on to win the race.


12:47 AM Jul 11