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Hamilton demoted to 3rd
Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 04:16 PM (5,639 Views)
Bear
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I'm not going to join in with this as such again, but thought the view of a independent current F1 driver might be useful for the debate:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4122046,00.html

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Toyota's Jarno Trulli has added his voice to the debate surrounding Lewis Hamilton's 25-second penalty after the Belgian Grand Prix.

Hamilton crossed the finishing line first, but was later demoted to third place after stewards ruled that he gained an unfair advantage when cutting the chicane while overtaking Kimi Raikkonen in the final few laps.

Trulli believes Hamilton gained an advantage during the incident.

The Italian told Gazzetta dello Sport: "In my opinion Hamilton got an advantage by cutting the chicane. Had he stayed on the road, he wouldn't have had the speed to overtake the Ferrari.

"In the same way at Monza someone could cut the first chicane, catch a rival's draft, and overtake him under braking at Roggia.

"When you attack on the outside, you do it at your own risk, because who's on the inside has the right to do the corner. If there isn't enough room, then you lift.

"Had there been a wall there, instead of the surfaced escape route, would Lewis have attacked anyway? Had there been gravel, he wouldn't have had the chance to attack when rejoining the track because of dirty tyres."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
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John
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well I dare say that after last week he will now have a much better idea of how much is enough...
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AndyW76
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 9 2008
12:48 PM
It's up to Lewis not to drive in such a manner as to make the Stewards get their slide rules out.

He didn't have to take such a big risk. He gambled when he didn't need to and he lost.

Hamilton did exactly what the drivers were told was acceptible practice. What else can he do? if someone told you that, if you passed someone by cutting a corner, all you had to do to avoid a penalty was give the place back. I bet you'd do exactly the same as Lewis did. Let's just remember that the stewards have not been consistent with pre-existing precidents. Like I said before, opinion based penalties that seriously change results are on dangerous ground. Opinion is always biased in some way, even where all efforts are made to remain impartial, and by definition can be challenged by those that disagree with the judgement.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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"In the same way at Monza someone could cut the first chicane, catch a rival's draft, and overtake him under braking at Roggia.

"When you attack on the outside, you do it at your own risk, because who's on the inside has the right to do the corner. If there isn't enough room, then you lift."

Egg Zackly. Lewis entered the first corner at high speed, on the outside, found his way blocked on the way to the next corner, couldn't or wouldn't follow Kimi round the corner and came out of it AT A MUCH HIGHER SPEED THAN IF HE HAD TAKEN THE CORNER. He then used that speed to draft and then pass Kimi down the straight.
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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 9 2008
12:54 PM
I'm not going to join in with this as such again, but thought the view of a independent current F1 driver might be useful for the debate:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4122046,00.html

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Toyota's Jarno Trulli has added his voice to the debate surrounding Lewis Hamilton's 25-second penalty after the Belgian Grand Prix.

Hamilton crossed the finishing line first, but was later demoted to third place after stewards ruled that he gained an unfair advantage when cutting the chicane while overtaking Kimi Raikkonen in the final few laps.

Trulli believes Hamilton gained an advantage during the incident.

The Italian told Gazzetta dello Sport: "In my opinion Hamilton got an advantage by cutting the chicane. Had he stayed on the road, he wouldn't have had the speed to overtake the Ferrari.

"In the same way at Monza someone could cut the first chicane, catch a rival's draft, and overtake him under braking at Roggia.

"When you attack on the outside, you do it at your own risk, because who's on the inside has the right to do the corner. If there isn't enough room, then you lift.

"Had there been a wall there, instead of the surfaced escape route, would Lewis have attacked anyway? Had there been gravel, he wouldn't have had the chance to attack when rejoining the track because of dirty tyres."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

No disrespect to trulli but if it was him with the penalty in the same circumstances, I suspect that he'd have a different opinion. Oh and guess what nationality Jarno is, I wonder......... <think>
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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Oh please.
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AndyW76
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 9 2008
01:03 PM
"In the same way at Monza someone could cut the first chicane, catch a rival's draft, and overtake him under braking at Roggia.

"When you attack on the outside, you do it at your own risk, because who's on the inside has the right to do the corner. If there isn't enough room, then you lift."

Egg Zackly.  Lewis entered the first corner at high speed, on the outside, found his way blocked on the way to the next corner, couldn't or wouldn't follow Kimi round the corner and came out of it AT A MUCH HIGHER SPEED THAN IF HE HAD TAKEN THE CORNER.  He then used that speed to draft and then pass Kimi down the straight.

Your statement is inconsistent. Lets break the situation down.

Lewis cut the corner and passed kimi, right. But then Kimi passed Lewis, indicating that Kimi must have been travelling faster than lewis. If lewis had maintianed his line behind Kimi, it is not unreasonable to suggest that Lewis would have exited the corner at pretty much exactly the same speed as kimi. With me so far.
So, considering the above,......



HOW THE HELL CAN LEWIS POSSIBLY HAVE EXITED THE CORNER FASTER THAN HE WOULD HAVE NORMALLY DONE?
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craggle78
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Well I think a bit more race-craft or common sense on Hamilton's behalf would have helped the scenario. The moment he past Kimi was probably not going to be his last opportunity, and it didn't devastate his championship position even if he didn't get another.

To give the place back, but then put yourself in such an advantageous position that pretty much straight away your going to retake the position is slightly naive IMO. Hind-sight is great, but all he needed to do is let Kimi lead for more than a few yards, or one corner. The steward's couldn't have said anything about it.

The problem is how the steward's perceive the rules, technically Lewis handed the place back and if that's what the rules state then he never did anything wrong(?)right(?)

I personally think the penalty is harsh, but I totally understand why the steward's had issues with it.

I don't think its quite as bad a decision as some are suggesting, its probably not endearing F1 to the casual viewer, but its not a US GP 2005 scale fiasco for F1.

There does appear to be a continuing trend that the FIA, Stewards and whoever really try their very hardest to keep the championship alive right to the death each year though. Is this because usually the races are so dull that the only interest and excitment they can produce is where the championship might go? Anyway thats a bit of a tangent.



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AndyW76
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 9 2008
01:05 PM
Oh please.

I would rather take the word of an impartial exdriver who wouldn't be under thread of sanction for criticising stewards. Say, JYS or Nikki Lauda.
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PiquetFan
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craggle78,Sep 9 2008
03:11 PM
The problem is how the steward's perceive the rules, technically Lewis handed the place back and if that's what the rules state then he never did anything wrong(?)right(?)

I personally think the penalty is harsh, but I totally understand why the steward's had issues with it.

Hello stranger <wave>

I believe the word 'advantage' is used rather than 'place'. To cover someone keeping their place while cutting a chicane, for example.
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John
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The 'Oh Please' was response to your blatant reference to the drivers nationality...

Of course this being the case... is this an admission that the Brits dislike Alonso because he is not a Brit.. <think>

Thanks for confirming what many widely suspected... <clap>
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AndyW76
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craggle78,Sep 9 2008
01:11 PM
Well I think a bit more race-craft or common sense on Hamilton's behalf would have helped the scenario. The moment he past Kimi was probably not going to be his last opportunity, and it didn't devastate his championship position even if he didn't get another.

To give the place back, but then put yourself in such an advantageous position that pretty much straight away your going to retake the position is slightly naive IMO. Hind-sight is great, but all he needed to do is let Kimi lead for more than a few yards, or one corner. The steward's couldn't have said anything about it.

The problem is how the steward's perceive the rules, technically Lewis handed the place back and if that's what the rules state then he never did anything wrong(?)right(?)

I personally think the penalty is harsh, but I totally understand why the steward's had issues with it.

I don't think its quite as bad a decision as some are suggesting, its probably not endearing F1 to the casual viewer, but its not a US GP 2005 scale fiasco for F1.

There does appear to be a continuing trend that the FIA, Stewards and whoever really try their very hardest to keep the championship alive right to the death each year though. Is this because usually the races are so dull that the only interest and excitment they can produce is where the championship might go? Anyway thats a bit of a tangent.

OK, take a different situation. Monza 2006, Alonso was perceived to have held up massa in qualifying, in which the rules state is illegal. As such, Alonso was handed a penalty. Looking on the video evidenct, Alonso is a long way in front of massa and it is evident to everyone except stevie wonder that massa was in no way held up. Unfortunately, looking at the telemetry, it was evident that Massa was in Alonso's slipstream and hence could have lost some down force, though it isn't inconceivable that he actually gained from receiving the slipstream on the straight. So Alonso was punished over something he could not possibly have judged or have any control over.

In the same vane, it is not inconceivable that Kimi was slow down the S/F straight because of the ferrari's poor grip in the wet, which is something that Lewis had no judgement or control over. Lewis had no other measure by which to judge backing off other than letting Kimi past. Hence Lewis has been punished in and unfair and unquantifiable way.
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craggle78
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PiquetFan,Sep 9 2008
01:16 PM
craggle78,Sep 9 2008
03:11 PM
The problem is how the steward's perceive the rules, technically Lewis handed the place back and if that's what the rules state then he never did anything wrong(?)right(?)

I personally think the penalty is harsh, but I totally understand why the steward's had issues with it.

Hello stranger <wave>

I believe the word 'advantage' is used rather than 'place'. To cover someone keeping their place while cutting a chicane, for example.

Hi PiquetFan,

Well if "Advantage" replaces "Place" then I understand even clearer why there was a penalty given.

I ain't quite up to speed with how the current rules are written to be fair.

Thanks for the info though. <thumbsup>
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PiquetFan
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John,Sep 9 2008
03:16 PM
The 'Oh Please' was response to your blatant reference to the drivers nationality...

Of course this being the case... is this an admission that the Brits dislike Alonso because he is not a Brit.. <think>

Thanks for confirming what many widely suspected... <clap>

<nono>

No place for nationality bashing in this thread. Let's keep on topic <thumbsup>
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John
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PiquetFan,Sep 9 2008
02:25 PM
No place for nationality bashing in this thread. Let's keep on topic <thumbsup>

LOL.... I agree which is why I was highlighting the previous members insinuation

It was uncalled for... now had you been doing your job correctly you would have pick that up and not my reply... <doh>

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