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Hamilton demoted to 3rd
Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 04:16 PM (5,643 Views)
Bear
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:48 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:40 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

Why is the truth trolling? Good grief.

Well, seeing as you are only giving your opinion, it doesn't necessarily qualify as the truth.

The facts are as follows: -

Lewis got alongside Kimi into the bustop. Kimi held his line. Lewis left the track to avoid contact with kimi. Lewis rejoined the track ahead of kimi. Lewis allowed kimi to pass him before the end of the lap (telemetry indicating that Kimi crossed the S/F Line 6KPH faster than Lewis). Lewis proceeds to follow directly behind kimi on the approach to La Source. Lewis passed Kimi into La Source taking the lead.

Now if you can put timings and exact positions for each car and simulate what would have happened if Lewis hasn't attempted the pass at the busstop, only then could you prove whether or not Lewis gained an advantage. In fact, I believe that if lewis hadn't attempted the initial pass, he would have taken Kimi at la source anyway.

In that bit, I was talking about Massa and said he was the better driver on the day at keeping it on the track. That is the truth.

Well, that is a matter of opinion. Yes, Massa did not go off but there was no way he could have kept up with Lewis and kimi in the final laps. The fact that Kimi binned it trying to keep up with Lewis shows the mclaren's superiority in the conditions. The only conclusion you can make from that is not that Massa was the better driver but the more careful.

Take Prost and Senna, Prost was always more careful that Senna and as a result had fewer accident, yet Senna is still considered the better driver.

With respect, I don't consider falling off the track or infringing the rules makes someone a better driver. On the day, Massa drove best for the conditions and made the least mistakes ... therefore on the day he was the better driver. Cautious and better.
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PiquetFan
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dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
03:30 PM
Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

I know that feelings are running high at the moment, but try and keep personal attacks out of the discussion.
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Bear
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PiquetFan,Sep 8 2008
01:54 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
03:30 PM
Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

I know that feelings are running high at the moment, but try and keep personal attacks out of the discussion.

Thank you.
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Norbert
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
02:31 PM
I think a few people on here are missing your point. Surely it is the daftness of punishing people for leaving the track in such difficult conditions that makes the penalty so absured.

Yes, but there's a world of difference between falling off the track or avoiding a spinning car and deliberately deciding to miss half a chicane.....
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Norbert
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u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
02:20 PM
Didn't he go off track when Kimi past him? <think>

I think that was Kimi who left the track, but it was hard to tell as it was an overhead shot....
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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:51 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:43 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

This explains things quite calmly.

If the stewards think Hamilton didn't do enough to give back the advantage, then that's fair enough  ... they make the decisions and clearly spent time thinking about things.  With all the data and views they must have had, why do people find it so hard to accept their reasoned decision? Just because you don't agree with a decision, it doesn't mean the decision was wrong.

I think ANY driver who did what Lewis did should have been punished.

Yet there is a they large consensus of opinion that the decision was wrong.

Anyway, if that is what you believe, do you think Schumacher should have been punished for his actions at Hungary 2006.

If you need reminding, he went off to prevent Pedro De La Rossa from passing him and also Heidfeld, yet there was not punishment issued and he actually scored a point despite not going the full race distance.

Or are you avoiding my question because it reveals an uncomfortable truth? <think>

A large consensus means nothing. Only the stewards had all the data. Lots of people believed at one time that if you sailed far enough you'd fall off the end of the world ... with data and knowledge we don't believe that any more. So I don't care what any large or small group thinks ... I'm only concerned with what I have seen with my own eyes ... which has been supported by the stewards' decision.

I don't remember the 2006 incident you refer to ... but it sounds like Schumi should have been punished. As he should have been punished for the move in Oz on Hill. I am NOT a Ferrari fan, if that is what you are thinking.

Just because the stewards are in a position of power doesn't make them right every time either. The fact is that Lewis followed exactly what is expected of the drivers in that situation and I can't fault him for that. Unfortunately, the stewards have excersized their judgement and have issued a punishment that is inconsistent with past incidents.
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Bear
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
02:02 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:51 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:43 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

This explains things quite calmly.

If the stewards think Hamilton didn't do enough to give back the advantage, then that's fair enough  ... they make the decisions and clearly spent time thinking about things.  With all the data and views they must have had, why do people find it so hard to accept their reasoned decision? Just because you don't agree with a decision, it doesn't mean the decision was wrong.

I think ANY driver who did what Lewis did should have been punished.

Yet there is a they large consensus of opinion that the decision was wrong.

Anyway, if that is what you believe, do you think Schumacher should have been punished for his actions at Hungary 2006.

If you need reminding, he went off to prevent Pedro De La Rossa from passing him and also Heidfeld, yet there was not punishment issued and he actually scored a point despite not going the full race distance.

Or are you avoiding my question because it reveals an uncomfortable truth? <think>

A large consensus means nothing. Only the stewards had all the data. Lots of people believed at one time that if you sailed far enough you'd fall off the end of the world ... with data and knowledge we don't believe that any more. So I don't care what any large or small group thinks ... I'm only concerned with what I have seen with my own eyes ... which has been supported by the stewards' decision.

I don't remember the 2006 incident you refer to ... but it sounds like Schumi should have been punished. As he should have been punished for the move in Oz on Hill. I am NOT a Ferrari fan, if that is what you are thinking.

Just because the stewards are in a position of power doesn't make them right every time either. The fact is that Lewis followed exactly what is expected of the drivers in that situation and I can't fault him for that. Unfortunately, the stewards have excersized their judgement and have issued a punishment that is inconsistent with past incidents.

With respect, I don't think that's correct.

The stewards appear to be saying that in their opinion Lewis did not give the proper amount of advantage back to Kimi and that Lewis did not therefore do sufficient to compensate for the advantage he had gained.

Anyway, I have really enjoyed discussing this with you and hearing your opinions ... always good to learn from other people. But for the sake of the board and because I don't think we are ever going to see eye-to-eye, I'm going to sign off on this thread now. Sadly, have got work I have to do ;-(

Thanks.
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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:54 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:48 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:40 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

Why is the truth trolling? Good grief.

Well, seeing as you are only giving your opinion, it doesn't necessarily qualify as the truth.

The facts are as follows: -

Lewis got alongside Kimi into the bustop. Kimi held his line. Lewis left the track to avoid contact with kimi. Lewis rejoined the track ahead of kimi. Lewis allowed kimi to pass him before the end of the lap (telemetry indicating that Kimi crossed the S/F Line 6KPH faster than Lewis). Lewis proceeds to follow directly behind kimi on the approach to La Source. Lewis passed Kimi into La Source taking the lead.

Now if you can put timings and exact positions for each car and simulate what would have happened if Lewis hasn't attempted the pass at the busstop, only then could you prove whether or not Lewis gained an advantage. In fact, I believe that if lewis hadn't attempted the initial pass, he would have taken Kimi at la source anyway.

In that bit, I was talking about Massa and said he was the better driver on the day at keeping it on the track. That is the truth.

Well, that is a matter of opinion. Yes, Massa did not go off but there was no way he could have kept up with Lewis and kimi in the final laps. The fact that Kimi binned it trying to keep up with Lewis shows the mclaren's superiority in the conditions. The only conclusion you can make from that is not that Massa was the better driver but the more careful.

Take Prost and Senna, Prost was always more careful that Senna and as a result had fewer accident, yet Senna is still considered the better driver.

With respect, I don't consider falling off the track or infringing the rules makes someone a better driver. On the day, Massa drove best for the conditions and made the least mistakes ... therefore on the day he was the better driver. Cautious and better.

I'm not saying whether Massa is better or not. All yesterday's race demonstrated was that Massa was more careful. It doesn't make him a better driver. Remember, despite his offs, including been run off the road avoiding Rosberg, Lewis still finished well ahead of massa on the road, meaning that it was worth it for Lewis to push, though notably he did lose some time avoiding Kimi binning it.
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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
02:06 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
02:02 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:51 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:43 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

This explains things quite calmly.

If the stewards think Hamilton didn't do enough to give back the advantage, then that's fair enough  ... they make the decisions and clearly spent time thinking about things.  With all the data and views they must have had, why do people find it so hard to accept their reasoned decision? Just because you don't agree with a decision, it doesn't mean the decision was wrong.

I think ANY driver who did what Lewis did should have been punished.

Yet there is a they large consensus of opinion that the decision was wrong.

Anyway, if that is what you believe, do you think Schumacher should have been punished for his actions at Hungary 2006.

If you need reminding, he went off to prevent Pedro De La Rossa from passing him and also Heidfeld, yet there was not punishment issued and he actually scored a point despite not going the full race distance.

Or are you avoiding my question because it reveals an uncomfortable truth? <think>

A large consensus means nothing. Only the stewards had all the data. Lots of people believed at one time that if you sailed far enough you'd fall off the end of the world ... with data and knowledge we don't believe that any more. So I don't care what any large or small group thinks ... I'm only concerned with what I have seen with my own eyes ... which has been supported by the stewards' decision.

I don't remember the 2006 incident you refer to ... but it sounds like Schumi should have been punished. As he should have been punished for the move in Oz on Hill. I am NOT a Ferrari fan, if that is what you are thinking.

Just because the stewards are in a position of power doesn't make them right every time either. The fact is that Lewis followed exactly what is expected of the drivers in that situation and I can't fault him for that. Unfortunately, the stewards have excersized their judgement and have issued a punishment that is inconsistent with past incidents.

With respect, I don't think that's correct.

The stewards appear to be saying that in their opinion Lewis did not give the proper amount of advantage back to Kimi and that Lewis did not therefore do sufficient to compensate for the advantage he had gained.

Anyway, I have really enjoyed discussing this with you and hearing your opinions ... always good to learn from other people. But for the sake of the board and because I don't think we are ever going to see eye-to-eye, I'm going to sign off on this thread now. Sadly, have got work I have to do ;-(

Thanks.

Fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree. <thumbsup>

I guess it is possible to argue without trading insults. <roflmao>
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Norbert
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
03:08 PM
I guess it is possible to argue without trading insults. <roflmao>

Of course it is. Are you f**king stupid?

<sarcasm>

<roflmao>





<peek>
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AndyW76
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Norbert,Sep 8 2008
02:10 PM
Of course it is. Are you f**king stupid?

Aren't you supposed to set the colour for this to #f4f4f4?

<roflmao>
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RJHSaints
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From my point of view, Hamilton did gain an advantage. You can see this on the on-board:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

He does not make a concious attempt to make the corner even though he could and he did not lift down the straight, it was Ferrari's greater top-speed that put Kimi in front. Hence, he actively attempted to gain an unfair advantage.

However.....

Ferrari's main argument post-Valencia was that Massa should not be punished because nothing happened - Massa lifted and allowed Sutil through. The stewards fined them for this which I thought was the right decision. This being the case, the same logic should apply here. Raikkonen retired shortly after, hence Hamilton in effect gained no palpable advantage. To punish him with a time penalty whilst not punishing Massa is wrong. I think Hamilton should have been reprimanded and slapped with a fine, but not docked 25 seconds.

Massa drove a good race and now has a decent chance at winning the title. But if he does, people will always point to this race unless Massa wins it by more than 6 points. I don't want a Massa title to be remembered for that. Hopefully the FIA will overturn the decision and hand the victory back to Lewis.
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John
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
03:17 PM
Norbert,Sep 8 2008
02:10 PM
Of course it is.  Are you f**king stupid?

Aren't you supposed to set the colour for this to #f4f4f4?

<roflmao>

Touché <roflmao>
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dazzerjp
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:55 PM
PiquetFan,Sep 8 2008
01:54 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
03:30 PM
Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

I know that feelings are running high at the moment, but try and keep personal attacks out of the discussion.

Thank you.

oh yes. soz about that. only joking

EDIT: extended obliviously to John as well
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Norbert
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What happens when you change the colour to #f4f4f4? Oh, right, you could leave hidden messages? Sounds like a way to insult people without other people noticing!
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