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Hamilton demoted to 3rd
Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 04:16 PM (5,644 Views)
Norbert
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u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
02:16 PM
In which case can anyone provide a list of drivers that didn't leave the track during the race, and therefore not be punished?

Well, the first one was Massa, so that's McLaren knackered.....

<roflmao>
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u4coffee
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Norbert,Sep 8 2008
02:19 PM
u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
02:16 PM
In which case can anyone provide a list of drivers that didn't leave the track during the race, and therefore not be punished?

Well, the first one was Massa, so that's McLaren knackered.....

<roflmao>

Didn't he go off track when Kimi past him? <think>
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Bear
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People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:16 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
12:32 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
12:16 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
11:52 AM
And then let kimi back past, as stated in the rules, so why the penalty, or is justice reserved for red cars. <sarcasm>

He gave back the position, but not the gap and so had an advantage.

Unless you analyse the cars throughout the entire corner,you can not possibly judge whether there was an advantage gained or not. The judgement can only be quantified by actual positions gained, hence the stipulation to relinquish the place back to kimi. That is all hamilton coulsd have done and I feel that the penalty is pure manipulation of unenforcable rules, like what happened to Alonso in quallie at Monza in 2006.

You only have to look to see that it took Kimi much longer to get round the corner than Hamilton did by cutting it ... and Kimi had the better line. Hamilton would clearly have lost time to Kimi if he had stayed on the track.

But actually, I have changed my mind.

I thought originally it was a fair but harsh decision, given that it was a rule infringement in the heat of the action and that Lewis going over the chicane was because he lost control of the overtaking movement and he left himself with no other option.

But looking at it from on board:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

... he clearly could have made the corner but clearly chose not to ... in much the same way as Schumi made a clear and cold choice to park the car mid track in Monaco.

I no longer think the punishment was fair but harsh.

I now think it was fair but lenient in that it wasn't a simple racing incident but in all probability an out and out decision by Hamilton to chop the corner (as if playing an F1 arcade game - come on, we've all done it from time to time) and to cheat. Think, if the info in this clip is true, that he is lucky to have only got a 25 second penalty.

Now you are being plain silly. Unless you have driven a 200MPH single seater on the limit on dry tyres on a soaking track, how could you possibly judge if he could make the corner. The fact is that you opinion is swayed by allegance.


What is your opinion on Schumacher cutting corners to defend his position at the Hunoring in 2006? That went completely unpunished, yet he undoubtedly gained an advantage in doing so. Let's just remember that we should be consistent. ;)
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dazzerjp
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u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
10:20 PM
Norbert,Sep 8 2008
02:19 PM
u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
02:16 PM
In which case can anyone provide a list of drivers that didn't leave the track during the race, and therefore not be punished?

Well, the first one was Massa, so that's McLaren knackered.....

<roflmao>

Didn't he go off track when Kimi past him? <think>

1st corner
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dazzerjp
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?
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Bear
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dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

Why is the truth trolling? Good grief.
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AndyW76
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u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
01:20 PM
Norbert,Sep 8 2008
02:19 PM
u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
02:16 PM
In which case can anyone provide a list of drivers that didn't leave the track during the race, and therefore not be punished?

Well, the first one was Massa, so that's McLaren knackered.....

<roflmao>

Didn't he go off track when Kimi past him? <think>

Actually it was kimi that went off the track to pass massa at the start. I didn't notice whether Massa had an off.

I think a few people on here are missing your point. Surely it is the daftness of punishing people for leaving the track in such difficult conditions that makes the penalty so absured. Also, I don't recall a single case in recent F1 history where someone was punished for merely leaving the track. Remember Japan last year when Kubica and Massa were constantly off the track yet not punished.
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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

Why is the truth trolling? Good grief.

Well, seeing as you are only giving your opinion, it doesn't necessarily qualify as the truth.

The facts are as follows: -

Lewis got alongside Kimi into the bustop. Kimi held his line. Lewis left the track to avoid contact with kimi. Lewis rejoined the track ahead of kimi. Lewis allowed kimi to pass him before the end of the lap (telemetry indicating that Kimi crossed the S/F Line 6KPH faster than Lewis). Lewis proceeds to follow directly behind kimi on the approach to La Source. Lewis passed Kimi into La Source taking the lead.

Now if you can put timings and exact positions for each car and simulate what would have happened if Lewis hasn't attempted the pass at the busstop, only then could you prove whether or not Lewis gained an advantage. In fact, I believe that if lewis hadn't attempted the initial pass, he would have taken Kimi at la source anyway.
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Bear
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http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

This explains things quite calmly.

If the stewards think Hamilton didn't do enough to give back the advantage, then that's fair enough ... they make the decisions and clearly spent time thinking about things. With all the data and views they must have had, why do people find it so hard to accept their reasoned decision? Just because you don't agree with a decision, it doesn't mean the decision was wrong.

I think ANY driver who did what Lewis did should have been punished.

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Bear
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

Why is the truth trolling? Good grief.

Well, seeing as you are only giving your opinion, it doesn't necessarily qualify as the truth.

The facts are as follows: -

Lewis got alongside Kimi into the bustop. Kimi held his line. Lewis left the track to avoid contact with kimi. Lewis rejoined the track ahead of kimi. Lewis allowed kimi to pass him before the end of the lap (telemetry indicating that Kimi crossed the S/F Line 6KPH faster than Lewis). Lewis proceeds to follow directly behind kimi on the approach to La Source. Lewis passed Kimi into La Source taking the lead.

Now if you can put timings and exact positions for each car and simulate what would have happened if Lewis hasn't attempted the pass at the busstop, only then could you prove whether or not Lewis gained an advantage. In fact, I believe that if lewis hadn't attempted the initial pass, he would have taken Kimi at la source anyway.

In that bit, I was talking about Massa and said he was the better driver on the day at keeping it on the track. That is the truth.

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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

This explains things quite calmly.

If the stewards think Hamilton didn't do enough to give back the advantage, then that's fair enough ... they make the decisions and clearly spent time thinking about things. With all the data and views they must have had, why do people find it so hard to accept their reasoned decision? Just because you don't agree with a decision, it doesn't mean the decision was wrong.

I think ANY driver who did what Lewis did should have been punished.

Yet there is a they large consensus of opinion that the decision was wrong.

Anyway, if that is what you believe, do you think Schumacher should have been punished for his actions at Hungary 2006.

If you need reminding, he went off to prevent Pedro De La Rossa from passing him and also Heidfeld, yet there was not punishment issued and he actually scored a point despite not going the full race distance.

Or are you avoiding my question because it reveals an uncomfortable truth? <think>
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Bear
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

Why is the truth trolling? Good grief.

Well, seeing as you are only giving your opinion, it doesn't necessarily qualify as the truth.

The facts are as follows: -

Lewis got alongside Kimi into the bustop. Kimi held his line. Lewis left the track to avoid contact with kimi. Lewis rejoined the track ahead of kimi. Lewis allowed kimi to pass him before the end of the lap (telemetry indicating that Kimi crossed the S/F Line 6KPH faster than Lewis). Lewis proceeds to follow directly behind kimi on the approach to La Source. Lewis passed Kimi into La Source taking the lead.

Now if you can put timings and exact positions for each car and simulate what would have happened if Lewis hasn't attempted the pass at the busstop, only then could you prove whether or not Lewis gained an advantage. In fact, I believe that if lewis hadn't attempted the initial pass, he would have taken Kimi at la source anyway.

You are right. Lewis might well have been able to take Kimi at La Source if he hadn't made the botched attempt in the last corner.

But because he did make a botched move, there is no way if he had stayed on the racing line he could have passed Kimi at La Source.

I totally agree with you ... and I think you actually prove the point I've been making for the last 2 days.
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AndyW76
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:40 PM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
dazzerjp,Sep 8 2008
01:30 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
10:23 PM
People crucified Massa after the Brit race, but in Spa he was much better than Kimi or Lewis at keeping it on the track.

His mature and considered approach compares starkly with Macca/Lewis/Kimi.

Have you borrowed Johns trolling hat for the day?

Why is the truth trolling? Good grief.

Well, seeing as you are only giving your opinion, it doesn't necessarily qualify as the truth.

The facts are as follows: -

Lewis got alongside Kimi into the bustop. Kimi held his line. Lewis left the track to avoid contact with kimi. Lewis rejoined the track ahead of kimi. Lewis allowed kimi to pass him before the end of the lap (telemetry indicating that Kimi crossed the S/F Line 6KPH faster than Lewis). Lewis proceeds to follow directly behind kimi on the approach to La Source. Lewis passed Kimi into La Source taking the lead.

Now if you can put timings and exact positions for each car and simulate what would have happened if Lewis hasn't attempted the pass at the busstop, only then could you prove whether or not Lewis gained an advantage. In fact, I believe that if lewis hadn't attempted the initial pass, he would have taken Kimi at la source anyway.

In that bit, I was talking about Massa and said he was the better driver on the day at keeping it on the track. That is the truth.

Well, that is a matter of opinion. Yes, Massa did not go off but there was no way he could have kept up with Lewis and kimi in the final laps. The fact that Kimi binned it trying to keep up with Lewis shows the mclaren's superiority in the conditions. The only conclusion you can make from that is not that Massa was the better driver but the more careful.

Take Prost and Senna, Prost was always more careful that Senna and as a result had fewer accident, yet Senna is still considered the better driver.
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Bear
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
01:43 PM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
01:39 PM
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=43872

This explains things quite calmly.

If the stewards think Hamilton didn't do enough to give back the advantage, then that's fair enough  ... they make the decisions and clearly spent time thinking about things.  With all the data and views they must have had, why do people find it so hard to accept their reasoned decision? Just because you don't agree with a decision, it doesn't mean the decision was wrong.

I think ANY driver who did what Lewis did should have been punished.

Yet there is a they large consensus of opinion that the decision was wrong.

Anyway, if that is what you believe, do you think Schumacher should have been punished for his actions at Hungary 2006.

If you need reminding, he went off to prevent Pedro De La Rossa from passing him and also Heidfeld, yet there was not punishment issued and he actually scored a point despite not going the full race distance.

Or are you avoiding my question because it reveals an uncomfortable truth? <think>

A large consensus means nothing. Only the stewards had all the data. Lots of people believed at one time that if you sailed far enough you'd fall off the end of the world ... with data and knowledge we don't believe that any more. So I don't care what any large or small group thinks ... I'm only concerned with what I have seen with my own eyes ... which has been supported by the stewards' decision.

I don't remember the 2006 incident you refer to ... but it sounds like Schumi should have been punished. As he should have been punished for the move in Oz on Hill. I am NOT a Ferrari fan, if that is what you are thinking.



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