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Hamilton demoted to 3rd
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Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 04:16 PM (5,646 Views)
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stradlin24
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Sep 8 2008, 11:23 AM
Post #151
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- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 12:02 PM
- Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
- 10:17 AM
If Lewis had not cut the corner, he'd not have had the speed to be able to take Kimi on the next, regardless of whether he lifted enough to give the place back. He gave the place back, but kept the advantage. Those are the rules. They apply to everybody and before you scream FIA bias, don't forget how many times Lewis got the benefit of the doubt last year (being lifted out of the gravel, dodgy driving behind the safety car, tyre rule infringements, etc.). His comment about Kimi pushing him over the chicane is also dubious, as Kimi had the racing line and Lewis put himself in a place where Kimi would have had to go off the track himself or they would have crashed.
Why Lewis took such a risk for 2 points when he is already so far in front of Kimi is beyond me. Instead of playing it safe and taking second, he starts playing silly buggers on dry weather tyres on a wet track, cutting corners, spinning and risking a trip into the barriers himself. All he achieved was to help Massa to catch him. He'd actually have helped his own WDC chances if he'd finished behind Kimi with Massa third, as it would have cut Massa's WDC lead over Kimi and even gained Massa some points by taking Kimi out of the race. Ferrari would then not have such an easy choice to make as they do today. Now Lewis has Kimi in his way instead of the Ferrari drivers fighting each other.
It's this sort of behaviour that lost him the WDC last year... he'll lose it again if he carries on like this.
Erm lets see, Lewis lifted off to let Raikkonen past, meaning that Raikkonen must have been going faster than Lewis at that point. The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight. Also, what else was Lewis meant to do, the only option that Kimi had left him was to cut the corner or crash into him. Also, has every one forgotten about Kimi's major off at Pouhlon which gave him the momentum to catch and pass Lewis at the following chicane (where lewis went off avoiding rosberg)? Lewis's penalty is quite obviously contrived and if anyone can't see that then they are looking through scarlet tinted glasses, especially after Ferrari's recent let offs at Valencia (though I agree that the right course of action was taken there).
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Bear
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Sep 8 2008, 11:23 AM
Post #152
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QUOTE:
You did not even need to know the Formula One rules to feel that there might be something slightly iffy about Lewis Hamilton’s move on Kimi Raikkonen during the “battle of the Bus Stop”.
In essence, the laws require a driver who has gained an unfair advantage, as Hamilton did by cutting across the inside of the famous chicane when he tried to pass the race leader, Raikkonen, of Ferrari, to give that advantage back before trying anything else.
Hamilton certainly obeyed the letter of the law, but in his haste to attack did he not allow, as one observer put it in a heated paddock afterwards, “adrenalin to triumph over the rulebook?” The British ace allowed Raikkonen to pass him but almost instantaneously went back on the offensive in his McLaren Mercedes and it was debatable whether or not Raikkonen had fully recovered his position and his advantage before Hamilton made his next move.
The rules do not go into detail about how an advantage can be deemed to have been recovered or reestablished and the stewards are thus left to interpret what they see on the television footage, combined with the representations of the drivers and the teams. It is is perhaps this subjective element that leaves an uneasy feeling and it is not hard to sympathise with Hamilton and McLaren, who believed that they had not breached the racing code.
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Norbert
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Sep 8 2008, 11:24 AM
Post #153
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- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 12:02 PM
Also, what else was Lewis meant to do, the only option that Kimi had left him was to cut the corner or crash into him.
Actually, there was a third option. Back off, and take the chicane behind Kimi. It was obvious that Kimi wasn't going to yield, and he had every right not to. However, Hamilton may have been disadvantaged by taking the shortcut, but not as much as if he'd slowed down and stayed on the racetrack. I suspect that the reasoning from the stewards was that he had no reason to leave the track, as there was still the opportunity to stay on the track had he backed off before the second part of the chicane. I would therefore suggest that the 'advantage' was the fact that he lost far less time by taking the shortcut than by staying on the track, and as a result was in a far better position to overtake Kimi into the next corner. Had he gone through the chicane, he probably wouldn't have been able to. Of course, he'd almost certainly have nailed in into Les Combes.
However, McLaren never do anything wrong, and are always persecuted by the FIA in favour of Schumacher or Ferrari. Of course, all those dodgy penalties in the mid 90s against Schumacher weren't done to make the championship more even, were they? Still, MS still won, proving that there's no reason that Lewis can't, and at least he hasn't had bans and DQs this season....!
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AndyW76
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Sep 8 2008, 11:27 AM
Post #154
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- Norbert,Sep 8 2008
- 11:24 AM
However, McLaren never do anything wrong, and are always persecuted by the FIA in favour of Schumacher or Ferrari. Of course, all those dodgy penalties in the mid 90s against Schumacher weren't done to make the championship more even, were they?  Still, MS still won, proving that there's no reason that Lewis can't, and at least he hasn't had bans and DQs this season....!
I'll remind you of that next I'm ferrari get a ropey decision in their favour, for 12,000th time.
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Bear
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Sep 8 2008, 11:29 AM
Post #155
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- Norbert,Sep 8 2008
- 11:24 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 12:02 PM
Also, what else was Lewis meant to do, the only option that Kimi had left him was to cut the corner or crash into him.
Actually, there was a third option. Back off, and take the chicane behind Kimi. It was obvious that Kimi wasn't going to yield, and he had every right not to. However, Hamilton may have been disadvantaged by taking the shortcut, but not as much as if he'd slowed down and stayed on the racetrack. I suspect that the reasoning from the stewards was that he had no reason to leave the track, as there was still the opportunity to stay on the track had he backed off before the second part of the chicane. I would therefore suggest that the 'advantage' was the fact that he lost far less time by taking the shortcut than by staying on the track, and as a result was in a far better position to overtake Kimi into the next corner. Had he gone through the chicane, he probably wouldn't have been able to. Of course, he'd almost certainly have nailed in into Les Combes. However, McLaren never do anything wrong, and are always persecuted by the FIA in favour of Schumacher or Ferrari. Of course, all those dodgy penalties in the mid 90s against Schumacher weren't done to make the championship more even, were they?  Still, MS still won, proving that there's no reason that Lewis can't, and at least he hasn't had bans and DQs this season....!
Completely right, Norbert. Completely right.
It is very sad for Lewis, but fair for the sport and the other drivers.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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Sep 8 2008, 11:32 AM
Post #156
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- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:02 AM
The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight...
... which he would have been unable to do if he had followed Kimi into the previous corner, instead of cutting it.
Didn't he get punished for doing a similar thing in another race this year?
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AndyW76
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Sep 8 2008, 11:35 AM
Post #157
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- Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
- 11:32 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:02 AM
The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight...
... which he would have been unable to do if he had followed Kimi into the previous corner, instead of cutting it. Didn't he get punished for doing a similar thing in another race this year?
When Lewis was on the straight, he'd backed off to let kimi back past, so where the was the advantage? If Lewis took advantage from the corner cutting, I doubt that Kimi would have got back past him at all.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Sep 8 2008, 11:35 AM
Post #158
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- Norbert,Sep 8 2008
- 11:24 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 12:02 PM
Also, what else was Lewis meant to do, the only option that Kimi had left him was to cut the corner or crash into him.
Actually, there was a third option. Back off, and take the chicane behind Kimi. It was obvious that Kimi wasn't going to yield, and he had every right not to. However, Hamilton may have been disadvantaged by taking the shortcut, but not as much as if he'd slowed down and stayed on the racetrack. I suspect that the reasoning from the stewards was that he had no reason to leave the track, as there was still the opportunity to stay on the track had he backed off before the second part of the chicane. I would therefore suggest that the 'advantage' was the fact that he lost far less time by taking the shortcut than by staying on the track, and as a result was in a far better position to overtake Kimi into the next corner. Had he gone through the chicane, he probably wouldn't have been able to. Of course, he'd almost certainly have nailed in into Les Combes. However, McLaren never do anything wrong, and are always persecuted by the FIA in favour of Schumacher or Ferrari. Of course, all those dodgy penalties in the mid 90s against Schumacher weren't done to make the championship more even, were they?  Still, MS still won, proving that there's no reason that Lewis can't, and at least he hasn't had bans and DQs this season....!
On the first corner of the chicane wasn't Lewis ahead, shouldn't Kimi therefore have backed off? Instead he noses forward and on the second corner, it's Kimi who is ahead and unlike Lewis, leaves Lewis with 1 of three options, crashe, back off or cut the chicane. Which option do think Kimi would have taken in a similar situation.
Kimi may well not have gone back on the offensive so soon if it had been him in that situation, infact it took him 7 races to actually get into a position where he might actually win again.
I think the issue is that if some one is so fast, then they must have cheated. Ferrari get that all the time (although frankly speaking they have been known to cheat)
It was obvious that Lewis was way faster than kimi and that he would have taken him eventually. His enthusiasm to do it so quickly I think took everyone by surprise, not least Kimi who barely had time to brake for the corner and thus went into the back of Lewis.
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Norbert
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Sep 8 2008, 11:41 AM
Post #159
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- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 12:27 PM
I'll remind you of that next I'm ferrari get a ropey decision in their favour, for 12,000th time.
I'll remind you of a very ropey deicision last July which is the only reason Lewis is actually racing!
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Bear
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Sep 8 2008, 11:41 AM
Post #160
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- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:35 AM
- Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
- 11:32 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:02 AM
The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight...
... which he would have been unable to do if he had followed Kimi into the previous corner, instead of cutting it. Didn't he get punished for doing a similar thing in another race this year?
When Lewis was on the straight, he'd backed off to let kimi back past, so where the was the advantage? If Lewis took advantage from the corner cutting, I doubt that Kimi would have got back past him at all.
The advantage is that he was closer to Kimi on the start line than he would have been if he had made the corner properly ... hence he had a clear advantage by cutting the corner.
All he needed to do was to wait a little while, let Kimi get a realistic (1 or 2 second gap back - which is what he would have had if Lewis had properly gone round the corner from his compromised position) and he could have tried to pass Kimi later on.
Don't think there can be any doubt at all that by skipping the corner he was closer to Kimi than he would have been if he had stayed on track.
If the short cut had been a long gravel pit, Lewis would NEVER have taken it. He would have had to stay on the track and he would have lost 1 or 2 seconds to Kimi given his poor position on the road. He might have caught him later in the lap, but he would never have been close enough to take him on the first corner.
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AndyW76
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Sep 8 2008, 11:45 AM
Post #161
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- Bear,Sep 8 2008
- 11:41 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:35 AM
- Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
- 11:32 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:02 AM
The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight...
... which he would have been unable to do if he had followed Kimi into the previous corner, instead of cutting it. Didn't he get punished for doing a similar thing in another race this year?
When Lewis was on the straight, he'd backed off to let kimi back past, so where the was the advantage? If Lewis took advantage from the corner cutting, I doubt that Kimi would have got back past him at all.
The advantage is that he was closer to Kimi on the start line than he would have been if he had made the corner properly ... hence he had a clear advantage by cutting the corner. All he needed to do was to wait a little while, let Kimi get a realistic (1 or 2 second gap back - which is what he would have had if Lewis had properly gone round the corner from his compromised position) and he could have tried to pass Kimi later on. Don't think there can be any doubt at all that by skipping the corner he was closer to Kimi than he would have been if he had stayed on track. If the short cut had been a long gravel pit, Lewis would NEVER have taken it. He would have had to stay on the track and he would have lost 1 or 2 seconds to Kimi given his poor position on the road. He might have caught him later in the lap, but he would never have been close enough to take him on the first corner.
Er, Lewis was a nose ahead of kimi on the entrance to the Bus stop chicane, so by giving up the place to kimi, Lewis actually lost time.
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Norbert
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Sep 8 2008, 11:45 AM
Post #162
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- TheCompleteGuitarist,Sep 8 2008
- 12:35 PM
On the first corner of the chicane wasn't Lewis ahead, shouldn't Kimi therefore have backed off? Instead he noses forward and on the second corner, it's Kimi who is ahead and unlike Lewis, leaves Lewis with 1 of three options, crashe, back off or cut the chicane. Which option do think Kimi would have taken in a similar situation.
Aha - the first McLaren fan to admit that Lewis could have backed off. Go to the top of the class. This is what the stewards would have reasoned. It is not what a racing driver would reason, because they don't want to give an inch. However, the fact that Lewis *could* have backed off and made the chicane, and the fact that he didn't, is what the enquiry would have been based upon. I don't doubt that Kimi would have done the same in Hamilton's shoes, but you can also bet you bottom Dollar that Lewis would also have squeezed Kimi for all he was worth too.
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Bear
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Sep 8 2008, 11:46 AM
Post #163
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- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:45 AM
- Bear,Sep 8 2008
- 11:41 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:35 AM
- Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
- 11:32 AM
- AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
- 11:02 AM
The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight...
... which he would have been unable to do if he had followed Kimi into the previous corner, instead of cutting it. Didn't he get punished for doing a similar thing in another race this year?
When Lewis was on the straight, he'd backed off to let kimi back past, so where the was the advantage? If Lewis took advantage from the corner cutting, I doubt that Kimi would have got back past him at all.
The advantage is that he was closer to Kimi on the start line than he would have been if he had made the corner properly ... hence he had a clear advantage by cutting the corner. All he needed to do was to wait a little while, let Kimi get a realistic (1 or 2 second gap back - which is what he would have had if Lewis had properly gone round the corner from his compromised position) and he could have tried to pass Kimi later on. Don't think there can be any doubt at all that by skipping the corner he was closer to Kimi than he would have been if he had stayed on track. If the short cut had been a long gravel pit, Lewis would NEVER have taken it. He would have had to stay on the track and he would have lost 1 or 2 seconds to Kimi given his poor position on the road. He might have caught him later in the lap, but he would never have been close enough to take him on the first corner.
Er, Lewis was a nose ahead of kimi on the entrance to the Bus stop chicane, so by giving up the place to kimi, Lewis actually lost time.
But, he didn't have the track position to make the move stick ... that's Lewis's problem, not Kimi's. He then ran out of track and couldn't (or chose not to) complete the corner.
So Lewis had not passed Kimi and was only close to Kimi on the start line becasue he cut the corner.
Tell me, if Lewis had completed the corner from the position he was in, do you really think he would have been so close to Kimi on the start line? I can't believe he would have been. He would have had to wiggle round the corner and lost 1 or 2 seconds. Therefore, I think he got an advantage by cutting the corner and should not have tried another move on Kimi at least until after the next corner.
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AndyW76
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Sep 8 2008, 11:52 AM
Post #164
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And then let kimi back past, as stated in the rules, so why the penalty, or is justice reserved for red cars.
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AndyW76
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Sep 8 2008, 11:54 AM
Post #165
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- Norbert,Sep 8 2008
- 11:45 AM
- TheCompleteGuitarist,Sep 8 2008
- 12:35 PM
On the first corner of the chicane wasn't Lewis ahead, shouldn't Kimi therefore have backed off? Instead he noses forward and on the second corner, it's Kimi who is ahead and unlike Lewis, leaves Lewis with 1 of three options, crashe, back off or cut the chicane. Which option do think Kimi would have taken in a similar situation.
Aha - the first McLaren fan to admit that Lewis could have backed off. Go to the top of the class. This is what the stewards would have reasoned. It is not what a racing driver would reason, because they don't want to give an inch. However, the fact that Lewis *could* have backed off and made the chicane, and the fact that he didn't, is what the enquiry would have been based upon. I don't doubt that Kimi would have done the same in Hamilton's shoes, but you can also bet you bottom Dollar that Lewis would also have squeezed Kimi for all he was worth too.
And Schumacher at the 2006 Hungarian GP? He went off the circuit to defend his position, yet received no penalty (and in fact managed a point from another driver's DQ). Nice to see consistency.
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