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Hamilton demoted to 3rd
Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 04:16 PM (5,647 Views)
Bear
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Norbert,Sep 8 2008
09:16 AM
PiquetFan,Sep 8 2008
09:52 AM
I agree with your clarification.

But this does muddy the waters further, as Macca have claimed that Whiting ok'ed the action that Hamilton took.

Well, yes and no. Don't forget that Ron said they asked Charlie for his opinion, and also said that his opinion wasn't the final word on the matter. Ron knew that Charlie's advice wasn't binding, and in fact I seem to recall other incidents in the past where a team has asked Charlie about something and the stewards have deemed otherwise.

As race director, Charlie has to report all incidents to the stewards for them to deliberate on. For all we know, Charlie may well have thought that while the move gave an advantage, that Lewis gave it back and overall there was no foul. However, he is not the stewarding team and his is not the decision.

There was so much happening on track, how could Charlie give anything in the heat of the moment but a quick initial opinion? With time and video review it is easy to see how the stewards could reach a more considered opinion. If in doubt (and they must have had doubt to ask) they should have told Lewis to back off more and to make another attempt later on.
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PiquetFan
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
11:33 AM
There was so much happening on track, how could Charlie give anything in the heat of the moment but a quick initial opinion? With time and video review it is easy to see how the stewards could reach a more considered opinion. If in doubt (and they must have had doubt to ask) they should have told Lewis to back off more and to make another attempt later on.

Fair comment on the amount of incidents occurring at the time. You should afford Macca and Lewis the same benefit of the doubt though, don't you think?

Hamilton was perhaps a tad impetuous by making the pass so soon after he cut the chicane, but I would still argue that the penalty goes against natural justice. We can agree to disagree.
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Bear
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PiquetFan,Sep 8 2008
09:41 AM
Bear,Sep 8 2008
11:33 AM
There was so much happening on track, how could Charlie give anything in the heat of the moment but a quick initial opinion? With time and video review it is easy to see how the stewards could reach a more considered opinion. If in doubt (and they must have had doubt to ask) they should have told Lewis to back off more and to make another attempt later on.

Fair comment on the amount of incidents occurring at the time. You should afford Macca and Lewis the same benefit of the doubt though, don't you think?

Hamilton was perhaps a tad impetuous by making the pass so soon after he cut the chicane, but I would still argue that the penalty goes against natural justice. We can agree to disagree.

I agree PiquetFan - it is very hard on Lewis and Macca, but I think if they were in any doubt they should have backed off and tried later on in the lap. Better to come second and get 8 points than to risk losing everything and get disqualified. Good action for us, but not great thinking by the team or Lewis.

And in the end, if they got an unfair advantage, then I think they have to accept the punishment and be grateful the punishment wasn't even greater. I think we have to be fair to all the teams and all the drivers on the grid and if the stewards can prove that Lewis got an unfair advantage then for the sake of the sport that unfair advantage has to be punished so that all the drivers in the future can understand the rules more clearly. Kimi might be able to fairly claim that he would not have fallen off the track if he had not had to fight Lewis to get the lead back .. a lead which the stewards have adjudged to have been unfairly gained. In effect, Lewis' actions might be seen as having caused - through a sequence of events - Kimi's accident. How fair is that to Kimi? How lucky is Lewis not to get an even bigger penalty?

If the race director had immediately got the call right and given a drive thru, Kimi could have just sat behind Lewis and not taken risks. Kimi loses out because of Macca and a wrong call in a difficult race .... how fair is that?

I feel very sorry for Lewis. He tried hard, made some mistakes, but at least put on a show. Think he took too many risks when fighting for a WDC, but that's his choice.

If any driver gets an advantage unfairly, they should be punished.
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u4coffee
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There was only about a minute between Lewis passing Kimi and the encounter with the Williams which gave Kimi the lead back..... Until he span and handed it back to Lewis. Not much time for the team to Check if the move was ok and do something about it <think>
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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If Lewis had not cut the corner, he'd not have had the speed to be able to take Kimi on the next, regardless of whether he lifted enough to give the place back. He gave the place back, but kept the advantage.

Those are the rules. They apply to everybody and before you scream FIA bias, don't forget how many times Lewis got the benefit of the doubt last year (being lifted out of the gravel, dodgy driving behind the safety car, tyre rule infringements, etc.). His comment about Kimi pushing him over the chicane is also dubious, as Kimi had the racing line and Lewis put himself in a place where Kimi would have had to go off the track himself or they would have crashed.

Why Lewis took such a risk for 2 points when he is already so far in front of Kimi is beyond me. Instead of playing it safe and taking second, he starts playing silly buggers on dry weather tyres on a wet track, cutting corners, spinning and risking a trip into the barriers himself. All he achieved was to help Massa to catch him. He'd actually have helped his own WDC chances if he'd finished behind Kimi with Massa third, as it would have cut Massa's WDC lead over Kimi and even gained Massa some points by taking Kimi out of the race. Ferrari would then not have such an easy choice to make as they do today. Now Lewis has Kimi in his way instead of the Ferrari drivers fighting each other.

It's this sort of behaviour that lost him the WDC last year... he'll lose it again if he carries on like this.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
10:17 AM
If Lewis had not cut the corner, he'd not have had the speed to be able to take Kimi on the next, regardless of whether he lifted enough to give the place back. He gave the place back, but kept the advantage.

Those are the rules. They apply to everybody and before you scream FIA bias, don't forget how many times Lewis got the benefit of the doubt last year (being lifted out of the gravel, dodgy driving behind the safety car, tyre rule infringements, etc.). His comment about Kimi pushing him over the chicane is also dubious, as Kimi had the racing line and Lewis put himself in a place where Kimi would have had to go off the track himself or they would have crashed.

Why Lewis took such a risk for 2 points when he is already so far in front of Kimi is beyond me. Instead of playing it safe and taking second, he starts playing silly buggers on dry weather tyres on a wet track, cutting corners, spinning and risking a trip into the barriers himself. All he achieved was to help Massa to catch him. He'd actually have helped his own WDC chances if he'd finished behind Kimi with Massa third, as it would have cut Massa's WDC lead over Kimi and even gained Massa some points by taking Kimi out of the race. Ferrari would then not have such an easy choice to make as they do today. Now Lewis has Kimi in his way instead of the Ferrari drivers fighting each other.

It's this sort of behaviour that lost him the WDC last year... he'll lose it again if he carries on like this.

<bow>
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u4coffee
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and there was me thinking the idea of racing was to try and get ahead of the guy in front... Ooops silly me this F1 and you only pass in the pits, sorry forgot that <doh>
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everythingoes
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u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
03:57 PM
and there was me thinking the idea of racing was to try and get ahead of the guy in front... Ooops silly me this F1 and you only pass in the pits, sorry forgot that <doh>

Ordinarily that would be true. But it does not apply if the car you're trying to pass is a red one, ok?
:P :P :P
<roflmao>
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u4coffee
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everythingoes,Sep 8 2008
11:32 AM
u4coffee,Sep 8 2008
03:57 PM
and there was me thinking the idea of racing was to try and get ahead of the guy in front... Ooops silly me this F1 and you only pass in the pits, sorry forgot that <doh>

Ordinarily that would be true. But it does not apply if the car you're trying to pass is a red one, ok?
:P :P :P
<roflmao>

Ah yes FIA Regulation 1.1.1.1 <roflmao>
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AndyW76
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Well, what can I say? What a f***ing stitch up. <mad>

As far as I'm aware, the regulations say that if you pass a car by leaving the circuit, to avoid a penalty, you must relinquish the place gained. As far as I could see on the footage, Hamilton did exactly this, being fully behind raikkonen on the start finish straight.

Also, seeing as raikkonen didn't actually finish, hwere is the advantage that he some how gained?

The stewards decision stinks of championship tampering.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
10:17 AM
If Lewis had not cut the corner, he'd not have had the speed to be able to take Kimi on the next, regardless of whether he lifted enough to give the place back. He gave the place back, but kept the advantage.

Those are the rules. They apply to everybody and before you scream FIA bias, don't forget how many times Lewis got the benefit of the doubt last year (being lifted out of the gravel, dodgy driving behind the safety car, tyre rule infringements, etc.). His comment about Kimi pushing him over the chicane is also dubious, as Kimi had the racing line and Lewis put himself in a place where Kimi would have had to go off the track himself or they would have crashed.

Why Lewis took such a risk for 2 points when he is already so far in front of Kimi is beyond me. Instead of playing it safe and taking second, he starts playing silly buggers on dry weather tyres on a wet track, cutting corners, spinning and risking a trip into the barriers himself. All he achieved was to help Massa to catch him. He'd actually have helped his own WDC chances if he'd finished behind Kimi with Massa third, as it would have cut Massa's WDC lead over Kimi and even gained Massa some points by taking Kimi out of the race. Ferrari would then not have such an easy choice to make as they do today. Now Lewis has Kimi in his way instead of the Ferrari drivers fighting each other.

It's this sort of behaviour that lost him the WDC last year... he'll lose it again if he carries on like this.

Erm lets see, Lewis lifted off to let Raikkonen past, meaning that Raikkonen must have been going faster than Lewis at that point. The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight. Also, what else was Lewis meant to do, the only option that Kimi had left him was to cut the corner or crash into him. Also, has every one forgotten about Kimi's major off at Pouhlon which gave him the momentum to catch and pass Lewis at the following chicane (where lewis went off avoiding rosberg)?

Lewis's penalty is quite obviously contrived and if anyone can't see that then they are looking through scarlet tinted glasses, especially after Ferrari's recent let offs at Valencia (though I agree that the right course of action was taken there).
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Norbert
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
12:02 PM
especially after Ferrari's recent let offs at Valencia (though I agree that the right course of action was taken there).

Well, that's a contradiction if ever I saw one. If the right action was taken, how was it a 'let-off'....?

<roflmao>
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AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
11:02 AM
Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
10:17 AM
If Lewis had not cut the corner, he'd not have had the speed to be able to take Kimi on the next, regardless of whether he lifted enough to give the place back.  He gave the place back, but kept the advantage.
 
Those are the rules.  They apply to everybody and before you scream FIA bias, don't forget how many times Lewis got the benefit of the doubt last year (being lifted out of the gravel, dodgy driving behind the safety car, tyre rule infringements, etc.).  His comment about Kimi pushing him over the chicane is also dubious, as Kimi had the racing line and Lewis put himself in a place where Kimi would have had to go off the track himself or they would have crashed.

Why Lewis took such a risk for 2 points when he is already so far in front of Kimi is beyond me.  Instead of playing it safe and taking second, he starts playing silly buggers on dry weather tyres on a wet track, cutting corners, spinning and risking a trip into the barriers himself.  All he achieved was to help Massa to catch him.  He'd actually have helped his own WDC chances if he'd finished behind Kimi with Massa third, as it would have cut Massa's WDC lead over Kimi and even gained Massa some points by taking Kimi out of the race.  Ferrari would then not have such an easy choice to make as they do today.  Now Lewis has Kimi in his way instead of the Ferrari drivers fighting each other. 

It's this sort of behaviour that lost him the WDC last year... he'll lose it again if he carries on like this.

Erm lets see, Lewis lifted off to let Raikkonen past, meaning that Raikkonen must have been going faster than Lewis at that point. The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight. Also, what else was Lewis meant to do, the only option that Kimi had left him was to cut the corner or crash into him. Also, has every one forgotten about Kimi's major off at Pouhlon which gave him the momentum to catch and pass Lewis at the following chicane (where lewis went off avoiding rosberg)?

Lewis's penalty is quite obviously contrived and if anyone can't see that then they are looking through scarlet tinted glasses, especially after Ferrari's recent let offs at Valencia (though I agree that the right course of action was taken there).

If Lewis puts his car in a position where he can't complete an overtake and he can't stay on the track, how on earth is that another driver's fault?

He initially overtook Kimi by cutting the corner - so he clearly had an advantage and was clearly closer to Kimi after letting him back thru than if he had stayed on the track and driven the corner properly.

It is unfair to the other drivers to let one driver (ANY DRIVER) get away with shortening the race lap. Just because Lewis couldn't complete the overtake and couldn't drive round the corner properly, it doesn't mean he has a right to take an advantage by cutting a corner.

Don't think the punishment is contrived at all. Think it is fair, but hard for people to accept.
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AndyW76
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Norbert,Sep 8 2008
11:13 AM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
12:02 PM
especially after Ferrari's recent let offs at Valencia (though I agree that the right course of action was taken there).

Well, that's a contradiction if ever I saw one. If the right action was taken, how was it a 'let-off'....?

<roflmao>

OK, bad phrasiology, I mean that Ferrari were treated fairly at valencia where as at spa, McLaren were robbed. Actually, make that mugged.
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Bear,Sep 8 2008
11:14 AM
AndyW76,Sep 8 2008
11:02 AM
Alien_SAP_Fiend,Sep 8 2008
10:17 AM
If Lewis had not cut the corner, he'd not have had the speed to be able to take Kimi on the next, regardless of whether he lifted enough to give the place back.  He gave the place back, but kept the advantage.
 
Those are the rules.  They apply to everybody and before you scream FIA bias, don't forget how many times Lewis got the benefit of the doubt last year (being lifted out of the gravel, dodgy driving behind the safety car, tyre rule infringements, etc.).  His comment about Kimi pushing him over the chicane is also dubious, as Kimi had the racing line and Lewis put himself in a place where Kimi would have had to go off the track himself or they would have crashed.

Why Lewis took such a risk for 2 points when he is already so far in front of Kimi is beyond me.  Instead of playing it safe and taking second, he starts playing silly buggers on dry weather tyres on a wet track, cutting corners, spinning and risking a trip into the barriers himself.  All he achieved was to help Massa to catch him.  He'd actually have helped his own WDC chances if he'd finished behind Kimi with Massa third, as it would have cut Massa's WDC lead over Kimi and even gained Massa some points by taking Kimi out of the race.  Ferrari would then not have such an easy choice to make as they do today.  Now Lewis has Kimi in his way instead of the Ferrari drivers fighting each other. 

It's this sort of behaviour that lost him the WDC last year... he'll lose it again if he carries on like this.

Erm lets see, Lewis lifted off to let Raikkonen past, meaning that Raikkonen must have been going faster than Lewis at that point. The only way that Lewis could have gotten up Raikkonen's backside after then is by geting the power down better than Kimi on the straight. Also, what else was Lewis meant to do, the only option that Kimi had left him was to cut the corner or crash into him. Also, has every one forgotten about Kimi's major off at Pouhlon which gave him the momentum to catch and pass Lewis at the following chicane (where lewis went off avoiding rosberg)?

Lewis's penalty is quite obviously contrived and if anyone can't see that then they are looking through scarlet tinted glasses, especially after Ferrari's recent let offs at Valencia (though I agree that the right course of action was taken there).

If Lewis puts his car in a position where he can't complete an overtake and he can't stay on the track, how on earth is that another driver's fault?

He initially overtook Kimi by cutting the corner - so he clearly had an advantage and was clearly closer to Kimi after letting him back thru than if he had stayed on the track and driven the corner properly.

It is unfair to the other drivers to let one driver (ANY DRIVER) get away with shortening the race lap. Just because Lewis couldn't complete the overtake and couldn't drive round the corner properly, it doesn't mean he has a right to take an advantage by cutting a corner.

Don't think the punishment is contrived at all. Think it is fair, but hard for people to accept.

I'm not saying it was Kimi's fault, Lewis took the only plausible action he could and has now been punished for it, despite doing exactly what the rules say. The telemetary showed that Kimi crossed the start finish line 6KPH faster than Lewis, so Lewis had definitely not gained an advantage. Lewis gained on Kimi when he struggled with keeping the power down on the approach to La Source.

I really can't see how anyone can call the penalty fair. I'll say it for the cheap seats: -


LEWIS DID EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS IN THE RULES!

Of course I can't accept it, the decision was bullsh*t.
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