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Kubica tips Ferrari's Massa for F1 title
Topic Started: Sep 5 2008, 07:46 AM (597 Views)
Stoppemfloppen
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With respect, he only confirmed what we all knew anyway. To sack him would have been in effect an admission of guilt. There was no need to play the tactic. MS had only on real challenger for the title and that was the person in the other red car - nobody else was even close.

I have no problem with team orders except the ones employed by Ferrari while MS was their driver. To not allow your own team mate to have a fair crack at the title just shows that you are not sure you're as good as your own hype. I still stand by my suspicion that the reason MS quit in 2006 is that he knew he would have to beat Kimi for real, not by having the automoatic advantage of being No.1 driver.

The conversation may well have gone something like this:

Ferrari - We've signed Kimi for 2007 on a 3 year deal.
MS - Great! we will be unstoppable with him as my reargunner.
Ferrari - Reargunner? Errr...he's employed on equal driver status. There will be no No.1 or No.2 driver.
MS - Wha??? No way, either he is number 2 driver so I can show everyone that I'm better than the best of the new blood or I quit!
Ferrari - Congratulations on your retirement.

I do find it quite offensive for people to belittle Kimi's title achievement when MS basically had them sewn up from the word go if Ferrari were the leading team.
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RJHSaints
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While I don't agree with Steestallions, your comments are overly harsh. Schumacher was by far quicker than Barrichello and Irvine 95% of the time on merit (and Massa to a lesser extent) so to have them taking points away from by far the team's most likely title challenger would not have made sense.

The way Ferrari did things at Austria was taking the piss, but I don't really think you can complain that Schumacher was running scared from anyone. At that point in his career he probably felt that he had achieved everything he wanted to and though there might have been some doubts in his mind that he would beat Raikkonen (although based on both their records against Massa, I don't think that would have been the case) I don't think that was the primary reason for his retirement.
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Red Andy
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Steelstallions,Sep 6 2008
11:21 AM
That's the only difference between that team order and all the other ones any team on the grid has carried out. The team order was not illegal, the drivers attention seeking way of carrying it out, is what changed the regulations

Rubens cannot be blamed for the Austria 2002 debacle because he did not make the call for him to cede position to Schumacher. Ferrari's decision was not illegal per se, but unsporting and not justified in the context of the championship. To blame Rubens for what happened is to miss the point entirely - yes, he left the swap a little late, but he was only doing what he had been asked to do. Had he not been asked to move over, no problem would have been encountered.

The other difference between Ferrari's team order and the kind of team order I mentioned in my earlier post is that Ferrari ordered a faster driver to slow down in order to let a slower one past. All the other team orders I have mentioned involved the slower driver letting the faster one through, which is logical if a team wants to optimise its results - albeit still not, as I pointed out, strictly legal. However it is an understandable decision - what is not understandable is why Ferrari would choose to artificially allow their slower driver to win a race.
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Steelstallions
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Red Andy,Sep 6 2008
04:59 PM
Steelstallions,Sep 6 2008
11:21 AM
That's the only difference between that team order and all the other ones any team on the grid has carried out. The team order was not illegal, the drivers attention seeking way of carrying it out, is what changed the regulations

Rubens cannot be blamed for the Austria 2002 debacle because he did not make the call for him to cede position to Schumacher. Ferrari's decision was not illegal per se, but unsporting and not justified in the context of the championship. To blame Rubens for what happened is to miss the point entirely - yes, he left the swap a little late, but he was only doing what he had been asked to do. Had he not been asked to move over, no problem would have been encountered.

The other difference between Ferrari's team order and the kind of team order I mentioned in my earlier post is that Ferrari ordered a faster driver to slow down in order to let a slower one past. All the other team orders I have mentioned involved the slower driver letting the faster one through, which is logical if a team wants to optimise its results - albeit still not, as I pointed out, strictly legal. However it is an understandable decision - what is not understandable is why Ferrari would choose to artificially allow their slower driver to win a race.

Having had three WDC slip through their hands in the last race when just a couple of points would have got them the long awaited WDC in the last few years leading up to 2000, I can fully understand the Ferrari management of 2002 not wanting to waste points on the number 2 guy.

We are talking about a team that waited over 20 years to taste success again. I was a schoolboy when they last won and a married man with two children when they won the constructors in 1999.

MS, as stated on other posts, ran circles round Irvine and Barrichello 95% of the races.
There was no point wasting points on them on his off days prior to clinching the title when the number 2 could never get the WDC under a normal season.
Irvine had his chance when MS broke his leg and MS acted as his number 2 when he came back that season. Problem was Irvine just wasn't quick enough to beat Mika in the last race and didn't have a cushion of points to win it further down the points.............yet another season Ferrari lost the WDC in the last race for a few points.

So though a repeat of Austria now would serve no purpose at all as neither Ferrari driver is that much better than the other i very much understand Austria 2002.

But as I said, had Barrichello conceded many laps before we wouldn't even be discussing this, and Barrichello would still have won just as many races when he left for his current team.
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Rob
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Stoppemfloppen,Sep 6 2008
10:59 AM

The conversation may well have gone something like this:

Ferrari - We've signed Kimi for 2007 on a 3 year deal.
MS - Great! we will be unstoppable with him as my reargunner.
Ferrari - Reargunner? Errr...he's employed on equal driver status. There will be no No.1 or No.2 driver.
MS - Wha??? No way, either he is number 2 driver so I can show everyone that I'm better than the best of the new blood or I quit!
Ferrari - Congratulations on your retirement.


From what I understand (from the Speed TV guys) it was more along the lines of this
Ferrari offices 2005.

Shumi: man this f1 thing is wearing me out, I knwo I'm still quick, but the training is just getting a little much.

Ferrari management: ummm look Mike, we really don't have anyone worth a damn to replace you, sure we have that guy from Sauber coming in, but he's not a team leader yet, can you stick it out for one more year?

Shumi: ok, but this is it.


Quote:
 
I do find it quite offensive for people to belittle Kimi's title achievement when MS basically had them sewn up from the word go if Ferrari were the leading team.


I would never belittle Kimi's title last year, I was quite happy for him and Ferrari, but I think you might be thinking Shumi's titles were a bit easier than they really were.
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Rob
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Also after today's quali I think Kubica will probably end up being wrong. I really think the McLaren is the class of the field right now, fast on all tires, all circuits.
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Steelstallions
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Rob,Sep 7 2008
05:19 AM
Also after today's quali I think Kubica will probably end up being wrong. I really think the McLaren is the class of the field right now, fast on all tires, all circuits.

Or we could turn the tables and come up with the boring ITV excuses when Lewis doesn't make pole, and say instead LEWIS MUST BE LIGHT ON FUEL.
<roflmao>
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RJHSaints
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Well, Lewis was light on fuel (I was proved right :D ) but I agree with Rob. Both Heikki and Lewis looked very quick in damp, dry and raining conditions. Maybe the Ferrari is quicker in the 30 degrees, not a cloud in the sky type conditions, but McLaren are better in the others. IMO.
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Lex
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I think it's Lewis who's faster in those conditions, today, he really spooked Kimi into making errors and did you see how much Massa slowed down? Had the rain come down a lap earlier, I reckon we'd have seen Heidfeld probably taking his first win with Hammy 2nd and Alonso 3rd!
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RJHSaints
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Had the rain come a lap earlier, Massa and Hamilton would have surely pitted for inters.

Massa didn't slow down that much. He was about 8 seconds behind Hamilton before the rain and finished 14 seconds down. The commentators mentioned that the McLaren performs better with the dry tyre in changeable conditions, then there's Hamilton's natural ability in the wet. Massa did a good job to be sure to bring it home.
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Red Andy
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Massa was playing it safe, he knew after Kimi crashed that he is the de facto No. 1 at Ferrari for the rest of the season. He didn't necessarily need to win, even though it turns out he has done.
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stradlin24
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i wonder how much Massa's bill for lube is?

two races in a row gifted to him by the stewards

clearly Kubica is aware of it as well
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Red Andy
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At least Massa drove like a winner in Valencia, he wasn't in contention at all today and even though I don't support Hamilton, the stewards' decision today is nothing short of scandalous.
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