Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Pit Lane. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Should Massa have been punished?
Topic Started: Aug 24 2008, 02:09 PM (2,093 Views)
stradlin24
Member Avatar
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Red Andy,Aug 26 2008
11:52 AM
Has anybody considered the fact that Massa was punished with a fine after the race rather than an in-race penalty because the Stewards and the FIA do not wish to be seen to be tampering with an increasingly close championship battle?

We all remember 2006 where Fernando Alonso was given a couple of draconian penalties towards the end of the season, coupled with the banning of Renault's mass damper which coincidentally came just before the summer testing ban. There was a lot of accusation at the time that the FIA were attempting to curb Alonso's success in order to hand the world championships to Ferrari and Michael Schumacher. Whether the accusations had any basis in reality or not, the publicity was still bad for the FIA.

By giving Massa a drive-through penalty for his infringement on Sunday, the race would have been handed to Hamilton, and everyone knew this. Everyone also knows that Massa had by far the best race on Sunday and therefore deserved to win on merit; moreover, his pit lane incident with Sutil had no bearing on his advantage over Hamilton and was therefore immaterial as to whether he won the race. If the race had been handed to Hamilton in such an artificial way, it is certainly possible that the Stewards could have been accused of favouring McLaren and Lewis in the championship chase - especially if Hamilton were to win the title by less than the four points (relative to Massa) that he would have gained had he won the race ahead of Massa.

Remember Brazil last year, where Lewis illegally used two sets of wet tyres in the Saturday free practice session and, instead of being given a grid penalty as established by precedent earlier in the season, was fined. At the time many people thought this was favouritism, but now I begin to understand that the FIA are actually trying to let the championship run its natural course, rather than making decisions that effectively decide who is going to win the title away from the race track. The same argument applies to the decision not to punish BMW and Williams for the "cool fuel" debacle at the Brazilian GP last year.

The first part of the that….

It’s ok to break to rules if you are in a close fight for the championship?!

I’d expect you all to have the same view if Hamilton does anything like this….
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheCompleteGuitarist
Driver
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
The rules are part of the natural course of the championship. Break them, you should get punished as a natural course for breaking the rules in an attempt to gain something unfairly.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
stradlin24
Member Avatar
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
TheCompleteGuitarist,Aug 26 2008
12:19 PM
$10,000 Euro fine is nothing more than the effort of having to go into his wallet.

I'm only concerned about consistency, it's annoying to say the least especially considering what happend in GP2, but Planet F1 make a good point

Quote:
 
And finally, they set the most dangerous precedent of delaying Felipe Massa's "unsafe pit-stop release " decision for no real reason and set the tariff for dangerous driving in the pitlane at a mere 10,000 euros.

Effectively what they have said to the teams is that they can let their driver out into a narrow pitlane near another car and the most they can expect to get is a 10,000 euro fine. In the past we have had races where Michael Schumacher has grazed the pitlane exit line with half a tyre (all on his own, no cars around) and been given a drive-though penalty.

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3265_4043190,00.html
Apparently, it was Sutils fault. <roflmao>

It doesn’t matter how much evidence you put before them, the Ferrari appreciation society will just dismiss it

Wonder when was the last time any of them visited Fiorano?!


<roflmao> <roflmao>
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheCompleteGuitarist
Driver
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
When the team released Massa, Sutil was within a car length away more or less, I'd say regardless of wether Massa was leading or not that was simply dangerous and to expect Sutil to suddenly slow down and concede the track to Massa is absurd.

This isn't an anti Ferrari perspective, it's simply common sense.

What I did think even more ridiculous was what happened at Kimi's stop. Albers lost his drive over such an incident (clearly in that instance it was his fault) but what was strange was there was no guy with a lollipop holding Kimi, what's all that about?

And as my wife pointed out, not one person went to the immediate aid of the guy who got floored.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
rickyclean
Member Avatar
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Just add my 2 pennies, the team should have been, but not Massa as he is not responsible for being released from the pit lane.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
stradlin24
Member Avatar
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
rickyclean,Aug 26 2008
12:43 PM
Just add my 2 pennies, the team should have been, but not Massa as he is not responsible for being released from the pit lane.

But then you open another can of worms completely

If your saying that the team should have been punished and NOT the driver then what happens when team orders come in

The Ferrari argument for YEARS has been that it’s a TEAM sport and therefore team orders should be ok

So, if they are saying that then they should expect to be punished as a TEAM, that’s the whole team including the driver

It seems to be that Ferrari, their ‘fans’, the stewards and the FIA just make up rules as they go along
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
stradlin24
Member Avatar
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
TheCompleteGuitarist,Aug 26 2008
12:42 PM

And as my wife pointed out, not one person went to the immediate aid of the guy who got floored.

Yep, noticed by me as well

Clearly they value their fellow employee’s very highly

On the replay it looked like the guy almost got his neck broken by the hose but they weren’t bothered! Great human beings them Ferrari folk!

Maybe they didn’t have a good view of it because Scumacher was sitting on the pit wall at the time and as he turned round to look his chin obscured their view
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rams
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Red Andy,Aug 26 2008
11:25 AM
The argument that an immediate punishment was applied in the GP2 race is vacuous because, until Max's daft "promotion/relegation" idea comes into force, GP2 is a different series to F1. It isn't even governed by the FIA.

Yes, it is. It is managed by FOM and ran by the FIA, just like F1.

Even the FIA have admitted that is was an unsafe release from the pit-stop, so I'm not sure why some people are still arguing against that. Blaming Sutil is stupid, what on earth did Massa expect him to do, drive up the pit wall?

Quote:
 
By giving Massa a drive-through penalty for his infringement on Sunday, the race would have been handed to Hamilton, and everyone knew this. Everyone also knows that Massa had by far the best race on Sunday and therefore deserved to win on merit; moreover, his pit lane incident with Sutil had no bearing on his advantage over Hamilton and was therefore immaterial as to whether he won the race.


So if a driver's having a good race, they shouldn't be punished? Rules are rules, Ferrari should have been punished.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
stradlin23,Aug 26 2008
12:21 PM
The first part of the that….

It’s ok to break to rules if you are in a close fight for the championship?!

I’d expect you all to have the same view if Hamilton does anything like this….

That is not what I am saying at all.

What I am saying is that if a driver is in the fight for the championship and breaks the rules, the FIA perhaps feel it appropriate to administer a punishment that does not affect what happens on track - for example, a fine. Unfair on drivers lower down in the championship table, undoubtedly, but it does reduce the risk of being accused of fixing the championship, and allows the drivers to fight it out on the track - and after all, isn't that what we all want to see?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
Rams,Aug 26 2008
12:56 PM
Rules are rules, Ferrari should have been punished.

They were.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John
Team Boss
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
stradlin23,Aug 26 2008
12:51 PM
It seems to be that Ferrari, their ‘fans’, the stewards and the FIA just make up rules as they go along

Of course that is not true...

but for argument sake let's suspend reality and say it was true... the fact it winds up the anti-Ferrari 'mob' is just the icing on the cake....

<roflmao> <roflmao> <roflmao> <roflmao>
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lord Tau
Member Avatar

Admin
Red Andy,Aug 26 2008
12:57 PM
stradlin23,Aug 26 2008
12:21 PM
The first part of the that….

It’s ok to break to rules if you are in a close fight for the championship?!

I’d expect you all to have the same view if Hamilton does anything like this….

That is not what I am saying at all.

What I am saying is that if a driver is in the fight for the championship and breaks the rules, the FIA perhaps feel it appropriate to administer a punishment that does not affect what happens on track - for example, a fine. Unfair on drivers lower down in the championship table, undoubtedly, but it does reduce the risk of being accused of fixing the championship, and allows the drivers to fight it out on the track - and after all, isn't that what we all want to see?

That's like saying in the Premiership if Man Utd and Chelsea were close for the title race and then a Man Utd player kicks somebody in the balls during a game and doesn't get sent off, because it might affect the title race.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
Lord Tau,Aug 26 2008
12:59 PM
That's like saying in the Premiership if Man Utd and Chelsea were close for the title race and then a Man Utd player kicks somebody in the balls during a game and doesn't get sent off, because it might affect the title race.

In the Premiership, the punishment for violent conduct is clearly laid out in the rules - a red card.

In Formula One, there is no set punishment for breaking a rule like Article 23.1 - the stewards can hand out whatever punishment they feel is appropriate.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheCompleteGuitarist
Driver
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Red Andy,Aug 26 2008
11:57 AM
Rams,Aug 26 2008
12:56 PM
Rules are rules, Ferrari should have been punished.

They were.

Sorry but......yes they were punished, how they must feeling the sting, I bet that fine really hurt. <roflmao> <roflmao>
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
As it hurt Hamilton for using two sets of wet tyres in Brazil ....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Enjoy forums? Start your own community for free.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Formula 1 · Next Topic »
Add Reply