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Ferrari bosses and drivers to blame
Topic Started: Aug 13 2008, 08:52 AM (935 Views)
Norbert
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AndyW76,Aug 13 2008
11:56 AM
until Heikke is told "pull over and let Lewis win"

Hockenheim.

*cough*
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Norbert
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AndyW76,Aug 13 2008
12:10 PM
Look at McLaren in 88/89 or Williams in 87 (though 86 sort of disproves the case).

'86 would have resulted in Mansell being WDC were it not for the woefully inadequate tyre strategy that Williams and McLaren chose, resulting in Keke Rosberg and Nigel Mansell having tyres blow out on the main straight. Williams actually told Mansell to stay on track afterwards after he suggested pitting....

<roflmao>
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SaveOurSilverstone
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Norbert,Aug 13 2008
02:37 PM
AndyW76,Aug 13 2008
11:56 AM
until Heikke is told "pull over and let Lewis win"

Hockenheim.

*cough*

????? i don't recall that happening... did itv show that?
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Norbert
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Let's think. Lewis is behind Hekki. We see Ron Dennis on the radio, followed, five seconds later by Hekki not bothering to defend his place against Lewis at the hairpin. Ok, he wouldn't have been able to ask Hekki to let Lewis by because that might be picked up on as team orders, but the fact remains that the instant Ron spoke to one (or both) of his drivers, they swapped positions.....

<think>
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AndyW76
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Norbert,Aug 13 2008
01:52 PM
Let's think. Lewis is behind Hekki. We see Ron Dennis on the radio, followed, five seconds later by Hekki not bothering to defend his place against Lewis at the hairpin. Ok, he wouldn't have been able to ask Hekki to let Lewis by because that might be picked up on as team orders, but the fact remains that the instant Ron spoke to one (or both) of his drivers, they swapped positions.....

<think>

Er, Heikke let Lewis past because Lewis was the faster driver. Heikke was NOT asked to slow in an effort to promote Lewis. In fact, Lewis went on to finish several places ahead of Heikke. For Heikke to hold Lewis up would have been to sacrefice the overall team performance. If lewis had been slower than Heikke and Heikke had been told to slow, like ferrari did to RB in 2002, then I would argee with you, but this clearly was not the case. Lets not try to compare like with unlike.
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Norbert
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Prove Ron didn't tell Heikki that Lewis was much faster, thereby implying 'get out of the way'....

No? Didn't think you could.

We all know that due to the stupid 'team orders' ruling, Ron couldn't tell Heikki to get out of the way. However, anyone denying that he was given enough info to know exactly what he had to do going into that hairpin is an idiot.
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AndyW76
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Norbert,Aug 13 2008
02:12 PM
Prove Ron didn't tell Heikki that Lewis was much faster, thereby implying 'get out of the way'....

No? Didn't think you could.

We all know that due to the stupid 'team orders' ruling, Ron couldn't tell Heikki to get out of the way. However, anyone denying that he was given enough info to know exactly what he had to do going into that hairpin is an idiot.

I never said that Ron didn't tell Heikke to get out of the way. Personally I think it is daft to hold up your teammate when you are not battling for the WDC. What I do dispute is that Ron told Heikke to sacrefice his race for Lewis. All that happened was that Heikke (on orders or not) moved over as not to compromise Lewis's charge for the lead. If Heikke had held Lewis up, it would have been counter productive for the overall team result, i.e. they would have scored 7 points (5th and 6th) as opposed to the points 14 (1st and 5th) they did score.

In austria 2002, the Ferrari's were 1-2 and would have scored the same points no matter which way they finished, so the team orders were intended to manipulate the WDC. Of course, that was the sensible thing to do in normal circumstances but the resulting implementation was a farce resulting in embarrassment and a rather disillusioned driver having his fist patronisingly raised on the podium. My beef is not with the team order (how ever unnecessary that they were at the time) it was the fact that RB was humiliated and lead to believe that he wouldn't be held back by the team.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Back on topic, I think Ferrari do have a number 1 and a number 2 driver and it's reflected in their relatively salaries.

Problem is he's currently not as fast as the number 2, not even fast enought to impose team orders without it looking really stupid.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Nice to see Hill asserting himself.
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SaveOurSilverstone
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Norbert,Aug 13 2008
03:12 PM
However, anyone denying that he was given enough info to know exactly what he had to do going into that hairpin is an idiot.

nobody denies this.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Aug 13 2008
03:24 PM
Back on topic, I think Ferrari do have a number 1 and a number 2 driver and it's reflected in their relatively salaries.

Problem is he's currently not as fast as the number 2, not even fast enought to impose team orders without it looking really stupid.

Won't they let them race until one has no chance of winning, like they did last year?

#1 was quite a bit faster than #2 at Sliverstone (as was just about every other car on the track) and is ahead of #2 in the championship, despite quite a lot of bad luck, so I don't know where the impression that #2 is faster comes from.

But hey, #1 is never going to satisfy the 'we miss Schumi and hate his replacement' crowd, so why bother? <hitwall>
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,Aug 13 2008
09:16 PM
so I don't know where the impression that #2 is faster comes from.

I agree, you're right, it's just an illusion that #2 is actually faster, he just appears to be trying harder I guess.
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stradlin24
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Aug 13 2008
04:26 PM
Nice to see Hill asserting himself.
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The day the cheat was truly born!

Although his team was cheating all through the season so it’s hardly surprising it rubbed on Scumacher

Pure scum

Anyway, back to topic…
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stradlin24
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AndyW76,Aug 13 2008
03:52 PM
Norbert,Aug 13 2008
02:12 PM
Prove Ron didn't tell Heikki that Lewis was much faster, thereby implying 'get out of the way'....

No?  Didn't think you could.

We all know that due to the stupid 'team orders' ruling, Ron couldn't tell Heikki to get out of the way.  However, anyone denying that he was given enough info to know exactly what he had to do going into that hairpin is an idiot.

I never said that Ron didn't tell Heikke to get out of the way. Personally I think it is daft to hold up your teammate when you are not battling for the WDC. What I do dispute is that Ron told Heikke to sacrefice his race for Lewis. All that happened was that Heikke (on orders or not) moved over as not to compromise Lewis's charge for the lead. If Heikke had held Lewis up, it would have been counter productive for the overall team result, i.e. they would have scored 7 points (5th and 6th) as opposed to the points 14 (1st and 5th) they did score.

In austria 2002, the Ferrari's were 1-2 and would have scored the same points no matter which way they finished, so the team orders were intended to manipulate the WDC. Of course, that was the sensible thing to do in normal circumstances but the resulting implementation was a farce resulting in embarrassment and a rather disillusioned driver having his fist patronisingly raised on the podium. My beef is not with the team order (how ever unnecessary that they were at the time) it was the fact that RB was humiliated and lead to believe that he wouldn't be held back by the team.

Yep, a most embarrasing time for F1

both in the race and after the race, that podium celebration was horrific

RB meant nothing to Ferrari, he was simply a pawn to assist Scumacher to win world titles

A shame, but this is Ferrari after all…

Win at all costs, it doesn’t matter how much you cheat and humiliate people, even if it’s within their own team
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Norbert
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A bit like parking infront of your teammate in quali, you mean?
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