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Four-way title fight?
Topic Started: May 25 2008, 06:31 PM (1,049 Views)
Brave_Lee_Flea
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,May 26 2008
02:53 PM

Oh no, the fact that Kimi won five races has nothing to do with it.

As for Bring Back Michael... did he not ever have bad days? I seem to remember him planting the entire car in a wall, was it Melbourne? In the dry.

I love how quickly people jump on Kimi when he does not win. Especially the MS fanclub. Ever occur to you that the fact that he had a problem with his wheelnut on the grid and a drive through penalty might compromise his race a bit? Not to mention Ferrari gambling on it raining again later and fuelling him long.

I am looking forward to digging out these posts later on in the season.


Several points:

1) I am not one of MS's fan boys. Rather the opposite in fact.

2) I am not reacting to a single race or incident; I am reacting to Kimi's entire (thus far) stint at Ferrari.

3) Despite having had a drive thru penalty yesterday he was clearly not running at the same pace as Massa. You will note that this happened before he was fuelled long to the end of the race and thus before Ferrari's gamble.

I maintain that we have not seen the best of Kimi since he has been at Ferrari. I said so before the start of the season and also said that that having had a season to settle in I hoped he would be better this year than last. So while you are digging around through old posts to show how clever you are you might keep an eye out for those.


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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Red Andy,May 26 2008
04:07 PM
Petra Lead,May 26 2008
12:46 PM
Ferrari appear to be suffering from having two drivers both fighting for the championship where McLaren can now justifiably throw all their resources behind Lewis. Have Ferrari forgotten all that they learned during the Schumacher era?


By the way, it's funny that when Massa is quicker than Kimi it's down to Kimi being "not motivated" rather than Massa being faster than most people were expecting/hoping. <rolleyes>

I assume you cannot be referring to me as, and I quote myself here :

Petra Lead,May 26 2008
11:46 AM

Massa appears to be better than I had previously considered and seems to be maturing into a very good racing driver.


I am consistent, considered and take a medium-to-long term view when judging drivers.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Red Andy,May 26 2008
04:07 PM
Petra Lead,May 26 2008
12:46 PM
Ferrari appear to be suffering from having two drivers both fighting for the championship where McLaren can now justifiably throw all their resources behind Lewis. Have Ferrari forgotten all that they learned during the Schumacher era?

The problem is that so far this year neither Ferrari driver has asserted himself as being much quicker than the other, so it would not make sense at this stage for Ferrari to throw everything behind one driver.


That's true; the failure I am referring to is one of strategy not tactics.

Choosing one driver over the other based on their position in the championship is a short-term view; it is tactics.

By hiring two drivers capable of taking points from each other they are harming their own title chances; bad strategy.

And talking of tactics what a strange decision yesterday to take the same gamble with both drivers...... I am sure that in the days of Ross and MS Ferrari would have come up with something better than they did yesterday.
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Red Andy
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Petra Lead,May 26 2008
06:36 PM
I assume you cannot be referring to me as, and I quote myself here :

Petra Lead,May 26 2008
11:46 AM

Massa appears to be better than I had previously considered and seems to be maturing into a very good racing driver.


I am consistent, considered and take a medium-to-long term view when judging drivers.

No, it's a general perception of those who tend to rate Kimi and, conversely, regard Massa as being a poor driver. I'm not particularly a fan of Massa's (he is in a Ferrari, after all), but I feel he gets extremely unfair treatment from an awful lot of people in terms of their assessment of his ability. Thus in a roundabout way I do want to see him do well, just to prove his detractors wrong; you couldn't really call me a fan, though.

In response to your other point, I suppose it is possible that Ferrari, like a lot of people, were caught out by exactly how fast Massa is. They could have hired Massa with it in mind that he would play a supporting role to Raikkonen even if that wasn't specified in the contract (Massa had hardly set the world alight during his Sauber years), only to be surprised by how well he performed and how comfortable he felt in the team. Thus it might not be a case of "bad strategy" as much as it is a case of bad judgement regarding driver ability.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Red Andy,May 26 2008
06:03 PM

No, it's a general perception of those who tend to rate Kimi and, conversely, regard Massa as being a poor driver. I'm not particularly a fan of Massa's (he is in a Ferrari, after all), but I feel he gets extremely unfair treatment from an awful lot of people in terms of their assessment of his ability. Thus in a roundabout way I do want to see him do well, just to prove his detractors wrong; you couldn't really call me a fan, though.

In response to your other point, I suppose it is possible that Ferrari, like a lot of people, were caught out by exactly how fast Massa is. They could have hired Massa with it in mind that he would play a supporting role to Raikkonen even if that wasn't specified in the contract (Massa had hardly set the world alight during his Sauber years), only to be surprised by how well he performed and how comfortable he felt in the team. Thus it might not be a case of "bad strategy" as much as it is a case of bad judgement regarding driver ability.

I was one who expected Kimi to blow Massa away.

That he hasn't either tells me that Massa is better than I had thought, or that Kimi is not as good.

Or both.

I am slowly coming round to the third way of thinking though I have felt for some time that Kimi's driving is lacking the panache that characterised his best years at McLaren. If it isn't motivation that is lacking then what is it?

It may be that you feel he isn't lacking anything but I just don't see the same driver as I remember.

Maybe he has matured and has started to play a more considered game. It is possible I suppose but it doesn't fit in with what I know about Kimi's personality; he fancies himself a latter day James Hunt. Playing the percentage game just doesn't fit in with that.

And yes, I can see that it may not have been poor strategy so much as Massa maturing better than expected.
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Rams
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I think Kimi's been poor all season. He doesn't look motivated or like he cares. Been watching some races from 2003 recently, some of the things he did in the McLaren were incredible but his level seems to have dropped off. He has higher standards than most, that's why people are harder on him.
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John
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Kimi always seemed to be only interested in becoming a single WDC, then when he did it it looked like he was motivated to win more than one title... suddenly he looks like he would not care if he retired tomorrow.... <doh>

I do hope I am proved wrong and besides it is still very early in the season to right him off.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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Petra Lead,May 26 2008
05:33 PM
Several points:

1) I am not one of MS's fan boys. Rather the opposite in fact.

2) I am not reacting to a single race or incident; I am reacting to Kimi's entire (thus far) stint at Ferrari.

3) Despite having had a drive thru penalty yesterday he was clearly not running at the same pace as Massa. You will note that this happened before he was fuelled long to the end of the race and thus before Ferrari's gamble.

I maintain that we have not seen the best of Kimi since he has been at Ferrari. I said so before the start of the season and also said that that having had a season to settle in I hoped he would be better this year than last. So while you are digging around through old posts to show how clever you are you might keep an eye out for those.

I wasn't referring to you, Petra. More a reaction to the instant Kimi bashing that erupts the moment he has a bad race - normally from the MS supporters who think that MS would be doing a better job than Kimi if he'd stayed.

He had a crap race yesterday, no doubt about it. Part of it was to do with the trouble on the grid and a team decision gone wrong and part of it to do with the fact that he was having an off day. Lots of people had accidents, he just happened to have one of his when Sutil was in front of him and unfortunately took him off. He wasn't following dangerously close or trying to overtake, he locked his brakes on a damp patch, lost control of the car and rammed into the back of Sutil - thereby gaining no points and losing the WDC lead. Why do people think that he should be punished even more?

Face it guys, MICHAEL SCHUMACHER HAS RETIRED.

Got that? He's been replaced by somebody else. Deal with it and stop taking out your frustrations on his replacement.
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John
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,May 26 2008
09:35 PM
MICHAEL SCHUMACHER HAS RETIRED.

When the feck did that happen.... <doh>
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RJHSaints
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Rams,May 26 2008
08:18 PM
I think Kimi's been poor all season. He doesn't look motivated or like he cares. Been watching some races from 2003 recently, some of the things he did in the McLaren were incredible but his level seems to have dropped off. He has higher standards than most, that's why people are harder on him.

Kimi has never looked particularly motivated to me, but he must be or else he'd never have made it to where he is now. That said, he definitely gives the impression that he's a 'get in, drive, get out, go home' guy instead of a really committed team player, like Alonso (taking out of consideration his antics at McLaren last year which were probably only half his fault)
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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Go and have a look at the video highlights on ITV.com

There's a bit where they show the Kimi/Sutil incident "Raikkonnen cruelly hits Sutils and then escapes penalty" (can't think who they might be rooting for).

Does it look like Sutil's about to cut the Chicane?

If not, then they were both incredibly unlucky, as the contact occurred just before the first curve!
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RJHSaints
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I don't think you should read much into that. 'Cruelly' could mean 'cruel' in the sense that Sutil was on for an unbeliveable result until he got hit, rather than Raikkonen 'cruelly' intended to take him out.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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RJHSaints,May 26 2008
08:51 PM
I don't think you should read much into that. 'Cruelly' could mean 'cruel' in the sense that Sutil was on for an unbeliveable result until he got hit, rather than Raikkonen 'cruelly' intended to take him out.

'unfortunately' would have been a better word, less loaded, dotchathink?

Especially when followed up by 'escapes penalty'.
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RJHSaints
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I agree, but then I don't write these things. <roflmao>
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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No, you are intelligent.
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