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MASSA AND KIMI; COST FERRARI???
Topic Started: May 12 2008, 08:09 AM (994 Views)
AndyW76
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TheCompleteGuitarist,May 14 2008
10:10 AM
RJHSaints,May 13 2008
04:24 PM
safc_fan89,May 13 2008
08:12 AM
Kimi has his off days, but the important thing about him is that he still picks up podiums.

Massa's defence of position I thought was a bit tame, but that's Massa. He'll never be a champion.

Rob pretty much summed my views on this argument. Frankly, I think it's just an attempt to pick a flaw in Massa's performance last weekend where really there was none. No doubt, he would have known Lewis was 3-stopping and, if anything, it was a shrewd move to let him through, because without doing so Raikkonen his nearest challenger would have scored 2 more points.

I'd say he absolutely did the right thing.

Massa DIDN'T know Hamilton was 3 stopping, was un-unerved by his sudden charge and had to be reassured that Hamilton wasn't going to affect his race.

Quote:
 

Massa was rattled by charging Hamilton


From the outside, Felipe Massa appeared to be serene and unruffled throughout the Turkish GP as he secured victory. In reality, it would seem as if the young Brazilian was rattled by the unexpected challenge of Lewis Hamilton.


On a surprise three-stop strategy, the Englishman kept pace with Massa from start to finish, and even overtook the Ferrari around the half-way stage of the race. While one thought was that Massa had allowed Hamilton to pass him without much of a confrontation because he realised that his rival was on a different, less threatening strategy, the Brazilian was in fact caught entirely unawares by the speed of the McLaren.


"We had to keep him calm by telling him that Hamilton was three-stopping and the race would come back to him if he kept his head," Rob Smedley, Massa's race engineer, revealed to ITV.


There there the nasty boy won't spoil your race <roflmao>
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3551361,00.html

Interesting. I'm not sure how much of that is from Massa panicking. Most people had guessed that Hamilton was 3 stopping, though I suppose that second guessing stuff is a dangerous game to play. One thing to note it that BMW thadn't figured it out because Kubica's race engineer reckoned that he was racing hamilton when he was a long way behind.
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RJHSaints
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And when Smedley told him, he would have known. <doh> I probably phrased that wrong. Never mind.

As for safc_fan89, in what way did Massa err in Turkey? Pole position, led from the start, always had time in hand on his rivals. Just because he didn't try to hold up a clearly faster car which he could have collided with, it doesn't make his performance flawed.
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AndyW76
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RJHSaints,May 14 2008
01:06 PM
And when Smedley told him, he would have known. <doh> I probably phrased that wrong. Never mind.

As for safc_fan89, in what way did Massa err in Turkey? Pole position, led from the start, always had time in hand on his rivals. Just because he didn't try to hold up a clearly faster car which he could have collided with, it doesn't make his performance flawed.

I'm trying to figure out what Massa did wrong too.

OK, WDC material is may be a bit flattering (or is it, 28 points out of a possible 30 isn't too shabby), but it is hard to find fault with his recent races.

Also, I think the issue of Massa worrying about lewis is open to interpretation. May be Massa was worried about lewis building up an insurmountable gap.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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it's a relative issue. Saying that he scored 20 points out of a possible 30 might sound impressive, but he's in one of the only TWO cars that have a consistent chance of scoring maximum points. It would be more accurate to say 20 points out of a possible 40 (points shared with kimi) discounting the first race won by Hamilton.

There is no other car that is guaranteed to put in a challenged to win a race. Note I didn't say that they are the only cars that can win.

He put in a good race, pole, race win, only got overtaken by one car, and overtook er . . . . we'll give that one a miss.

He was unnerved by Hamilton's charge, Ferrari have admitted it. Not something they are likely to make up is it. That's a definite chink in his armour.

One race does not a championship make and it has already been noted by those in the media and serious pundits at that, that Felipe has holes in his craft.

Being impressed by his points tally is a pointless activity, being impressed by the same points coup by say, vettel or sutil or nakajima or even Fisi driving their current cars, now that would be impressive, but when you're driving a Ferrari, it's kind of expected.

I'd say, and this is my personal opinion, that Massa looked decidedly uneasy when being overtaken by Hamilton, his car looked very jerky under braking as if he was unsure exactly what to do. Not as if he KNEW what was going on and so what if he overtakes he's on a three stopper and no threat.
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AndyW76
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Personally I think Hamilton's performance was very impressive, given his limitations. I'm just saying that Massa also performed solidly. I don't know whether or not Massa did know if Lewis was on a 3 stopper. I'd have though that Ferrari would have kept him well posted. What I do suspect is that Massa was concerned about lewis's pace on a light fuel load and that he might build up a big enough gap to cover his 3rd fuel stop.

In addition, OK, massa having a good run in the last 3 races doesn't necessarily make him WDC elect, far from it, there are at least 3 other drivers that could lay claim to that, but he is definitely on form and that is important for his motivation, especially after his disasterous first 2 races.
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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To a degree I am a critic of Massa. Nothing personal, I'm sure he's an okay guy. I do scrutinise his performances harshly but not unfairly.

His non turkey Turkey, excuse the pun was predicted, as he's known to go well here. What has also been predicted, not by me but the media, is that this may well not reflect his form over the rest of the season.

He had as solid a race as you can have leading from the front in one of the fastest cars in F1.

His being shaken by Hamilton has been documented in the press. We will only know if he's WDC stuff when he wins it, otherwise, previous form dictates prediction.

Several other drivers at Turkey had exactly the same kind of race as Massa, overtaken by a lighter car, even ending up, one or two places further up the order than they started. Solid races, yet unremarkable because they were in cars not capable of winning races. They came away with NIL points some of them, yet no one has said of their performance that it was impressive.

There are quite a few drivers in the field who would have achieved a similar result given a Ferrari.

However, it was Massa who did it and while I cannot take anything away from his 'achievement' and certainly I cannot take away the result or the points, I can't help but not get overly excited by it.
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RJHSaints
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Massa's steady performance would undoubtedly have been influenced by the fact he was leading the race. Yes, he may not have been setting blistering lap times, but he didn't need to. He showed on Saturday that he had the measure of the field for pace, so why risk hitting another car or going off the road by pushing too much?

I bet if Raikkonen had done that, people would be saying what a master racer he is, knowing exactly how hard to push in order to get the win. It's what Raikkonen did in Spain, wasn't it, and he got the credit there.

For God's sake, give Massa a break!
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Rob
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TheCompleteGuitarist,May 14 2008
12:48 PM
Several other drivers at Turkey had exactly the same kind of race as Massa, overtaken by a lighter car, even ending up, one or two places further up the order than they started.


It would have been impossible for Massa to finish any higher than he started....

I still don't see where there is really room to criticize Massa for Sunday. He won the pole and race, is second in points in the WDC standings and helped his team get a firm hold on the lead in the WCC. Rubens never got beat up this bad.
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Red Andy
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Everyone knew that Rubens was number two to Schumacher at Ferrari. People are unnerved because Massa is closer to Raikkonen than most people expected.
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Alien_SAP_Fiend
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Rob,May 12 2008
02:52 PM
A younger Shumi probably would have been on pole, and would have won by 25 seconds. <thumbsup>

Are you sure?

I think that a younger Schumi would have won the race by lapping the entire field twice, despite having lost a wheel at the start.
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Rob
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Alien_SAP_Fiend,May 14 2008
03:23 PM
Rob,May 12 2008
02:52 PM
A younger Shumi probably would have been on pole, and would have won by 25 seconds.  <thumbsup>

Are you sure?


Pretty sure. Not wanting to turn this into a Shumi love fest, but Michael Schumacher in his prime was pretty damn good, and I would venture no one currently in F1 matches up to Shumi in his prime.


Quote:
 
I think that a younger Schumi would have won the race by lapping the entire field twice, despite having lost a wheel at the start.



Now there I have to disagree with you. As good as Shumi was, he still needed 4 wheels and tires.
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Red Andy
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Yeah, a REAL racer would still have won at Spa 1998 even with three wheels! <sarcasm>
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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Red Andy,May 14 2008
08:59 PM
Yeah, a REAL racer would still have won at Spa 1998 even with three wheels! <sarcasm>

well i do recall mansell getting out and pushing his car across the line.
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Rob
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TheCompleteGuitarist,May 14 2008
04:09 PM
Red Andy,May 14 2008
08:59 PM
Yeah, a REAL racer would still have won at Spa 1998 even with three wheels! <sarcasm>

well i do recall mansell getting out and pushing his car across the line.

But he had the (unfair) advantage on having 4 wheels on the car.
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Brave_Lee_Flea
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Red Andy,May 14 2008
08:20 PM
Everyone knew that Rubens was number two to Schumacher at Ferrari. People are unnerved because Massa is closer to Raikkonen than most people expected.

I'm not sure "unnerved" is the right term, but "surprised" certainly covers it.

I still can't decide if Kimi is operating on all cylinders though; while he was at McLaren my brother and I used to have a running joke that Kimi drove his McLaren "like he stole it".

I can't help feeling that we've not yet seen that Kimi at Ferrari.

Of course it could be that Massa is simply better than I had thought but my gut feel is that Kimi's performances have been a bit flat - even when he has been winning.

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