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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 26 2007, 02:46 PM (1,042 Views) | |
| wickedwitch | Aug 28 2007, 10:42 PM Post #16 |
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Driver
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You want to go back to the "golden days" don't you? When motorsport was dangerous and sex was safe. Oh how I yearn to see the 50s, 60s 70s and 80s again. When the only driver aids were three pedals, a PROPER gear lever (not these silly things they have now) and a steering wheel. |
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| flood1 | Aug 29 2007, 02:19 AM Post #17 |
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Chief Engineer
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NASCAR has three pedals, four manual gears, carbureators, no driver aids and it is technically a throwback to the good old days. And, pretty good racing. I don't know which series has the best drivers. But, F1 is the most technologically advanced. If you don't like the technology, then choose a different series to follow and support. To comment, drop me a letter in the post written on your old Olivetti pica typewriter (no white out, correction tape, etc), put a few stamps on it and I'll read it in three weeks when it gets here by steamer.
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| safc_fan89 | Aug 29 2007, 08:51 AM Post #18 |
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safc_fan89
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Stig, you are showing your lack of awareness of what actually goes on in F1. Ferrari and Mclaren (and Toyota) have HUGE budgets. They can bring stacks of updates to each round, and test as much as the rules allow them to. As the money starts to fall (BMW, Williams, Red Bull, Renault, Honda), fewer updates. This means reduced performance. Then you get Super Aguri, STR and Spyker, who have maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of the budget of the top teams. This means they do not have 24-hour wind tunnels, do not have the finances to improve their cars at such a fast rate, and rarely go testing. Lack of finance, coupled with being a new team, means the staff are less capable and the drivers are there because they either have big sponsors or they have impressed sufficiently in a test to get a race seat. See how Klien, not a great driver but experienced in F1, was overlooked by Yamamoto, a distinctly average Japanese driver who hardly impressed last season but brings cash to the team. If you think that all the cars are just about even, you have a screw loose, I'm afraid. Onto drivers racing in other formulas. Their contracts do not allow it, in the case of teams like Mclaren. Plus Button broke ribs when racing a kart, forcing him to miss several test sessions. The most important test sessions. You also don't take into account the life of an F1 driver now. They have testing duties throughout the season and in the winter, sponsorship duties, team meetings, etc etc. You use the example of Moss, but when he drove, there weren't even 10 races on the calendar. There are now 17, soon to be 18, probably 20 plus in several years. Worldwide, not just european. Weekends clash. And it's sad that you have this (shall we say deluded?) thought that all F1 drivers have no talent? Why would they flap around hopelessly, if they raced in something else? And why do you always reverse the question so you don't have to answer something? Give me a reason why a F1 driver HAS to try his hand at something else during the season. Do WTCC drivers take part in Moto GP races? IRL drivers in Formula Ford? Doubt it, correct me if I am wrong. As for you saying you don't hate F1, pull the other one. It's not misguided but having heard your views on it for the last 2 years or so. It seems you're stuck in the past, if you don't like modern F1, stay away from it! I wouldn't want to see F1 return to how it was in the 1980s because things evolve. I don't want to see manual gearing (go to IRL), lack of power steering (go to another form of motorsport) or deliberately restricted engines to slow the cars down (go to A1GP or GP2). Things move on. Only thing I want to see change in F1 is the reintroduction of overtaking, and at least there are signs that something positive is going to be done about it. |
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| Norbert | Aug 29 2007, 09:04 AM Post #19 |
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Well, the problem is that you *are* seeing restricted engines, in a manner of speaking, as the teams aren't allowed to develop them, *and* let's not forget that these engines last year were pulling 1000+ rpm more than they do now thanks to the 19K limiter as mandated by the FIA. So they've lopped a few hundred horses off by going down from 3.0 to 2.4 litres, and then a few more by slapping on a rev limit. I would have expected the engines to be back to the same sort of power levels as they were at the end of the 3.0 litre regs by the end of next season should they be unrestricted in revs and development, as the teams are always pushing out new bits. |
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| safc_fan89 | Aug 29 2007, 09:11 AM Post #20 |
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safc_fan89
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There was something on autosport.com earlier this season saying that some components of the engine will be allowed to be changed next season...ie. relaxing the engine freeze rule. |
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| Norbert | Aug 29 2007, 09:14 AM Post #21 |
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Something like.... to reduce performance, teams may opt to use six cylinders instead of eight.....
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| AndyW76 | Aug 29 2007, 09:33 AM Post #22 |
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Team Boss
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It's not that I yearn for the good old days, in fact I still enjoy F1 races, though it is noticable that F1 has become a tad processional these days. I don't mind there being technology, the early 90's were quite exciting despite the presence of very advanced (for the time) driver aids. All I want it for the cars to be able to overtake each other. Recent steps by the FIA have had a negative effect on overtaking, like the afore-mentioned engine limitations and the introduction of narrow cars and grooved tyres. Clearly the FIA aren't that bothered about overtaking (remember mad max saying that F1 didn't need overtaking to be entertaining?). Many of these rule and other restrictions have force the designers to use complex aerodynamics to replace any lost grip. The way to get overtaking back in F1 is not to go back into the past, it is to remove these silly negative rules and allow innovation again. |
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| safc_fan89 | Aug 29 2007, 09:45 AM Post #23 |
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safc_fan89
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This group 'led' by Pat Symonds should know what they are doing. Of course we are relying on what ever they come up with being allowed by the FIA. it's clear that when things are left down to the FIA only, they screw up. |
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| AndyW76 | Aug 29 2007, 09:52 AM Post #24 |
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Team Boss
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We duh! If everything was left down to Mad max, F1 would have a similar fate to group C. |
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| dcoulthard19 | Aug 29 2007, 09:57 AM Post #25 |
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Chief Engineer
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It would be great if Max left his president role, there have been a couple of chances to get rid of him but nobody else decided to go for the role I hope that doesn't happen again at the next election. Be interesting to see what changes a new president would bring. |
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| Red Andy | Aug 29 2007, 10:01 AM Post #26 |
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I think Max's plan is to step down at the end of the current presidential term, which is (I think) in 2009. Unfortunately Jean Toad is currently favourite to succeed him, which may well mean more of the same regarding acting as a yes-man for the whims of the manufacturers. In my "opinion piece" on the Motorsports Business board I mentioned that the FIA needed a new direction regarding manufacturers, and I think a sufficiently strong-willed president could provide that direction. |
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| AndyW76 | Aug 29 2007, 10:12 AM Post #27 |
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Team Boss
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JMB please come back, all is forgiven!
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| Red Andy | Aug 29 2007, 10:14 AM Post #28 |
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Indeed. The major gripe towards Balestre, as I understand it, was the blatant favouritism towards French drivers (i.e. Prost). I doubt he would have tried to destroy motorsport entirely, as Max has done with Group C, and is fast doing with WRC and F1. |
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| The STIG | Aug 29 2007, 10:31 AM Post #29 |
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Driver
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Sort of... I'm not adverse to technology by the way, provided it doesn't take away any of the driver's skill. which most of it does, unfortunatly. Also, whilst I adore the cars from those eras, the modern cars are so much safer than their "Ancestors". That's got to be a good thing SAFC Fan, it has taken you around 4 postings to come up with a decent argument! The solution to your first point is clear - Cap the budget of the teams, and freeze car development at the start of the year. it should be the driver who makes the difference between winning and loosing, and no blaming it on the car either! When I was racing, albeit in RC cars, I never used to blame the car for my crap efforts as it's driver - even if it did let me down occasionally (once whilst leading a race at Donington, but that was because I made a mistake) also, some formulas have an equivulency system, the WTCC, FIA GTs and several others. Call it handicapping if you like, but it ensures that all the cars are of broadly similar performance even if one's been built in a garden shed and the other in a huge factory. Probably in Banbury. It doesn't stop the innovation of the teams, and the racing is all the better for it. If they can do it, then why can't F1? Drivers driving in other formulas... well... James Thompson - Works driver for Vauxhall racing, also competed in the British Rally championship for Mitsubishi. Became known as the ditchmeister due to constant crashes (this turned up on his touring car) Dale Earndhart Jnr - DEI racing driver in the NASCAR Nextel Cup. Also competed in ALMS in a GT1 Corvette. and got burnt. Rob Huff - Works driver for Chevrolet WTCC team - also races a MG Midget in the MGOC racing series on his days off. and competed in the Silverstone 24 hours last year. And started it too. Colin Turkington - Driver for West Surrey Racing, BTCC - Also competes in Ford Fiesta racing. Michel Allamuller - Driver for Carlin Motorsport FRWS, previously ART GP2 team, Also test and demonstration driver for Red Bull Racing F1 team. Sebastien Vettel - Formerly Driver for Carlin Motorsport FRWS team, Also test and reserve driver for BMW Sauber F1 team. Tim Harvey - Porsche Supercup driver, at one point was also driving for VLR in BTCC on the same weekends! Kassy Watson - Ginetta Junior driver also competing in Saxmax. Adrian Newey (okay, not a driver), Red Bull racing designer - drives a GT40 in historic events, and competed in this year's Le Mans 24 hours with a Ferrari. And so the list goes on... Now if that lot can do it... why can't messers Hamilton, Massa, Raikkonen et all do it? either because they're scared of being shown up, or cowardly hide behind convinently restrictive contracts. Cynical, moi? In fact. look at the race of Champions results. recently, only one circuit racer has won it. and he was Mattias Elkstrom. Michael Schumacher was beaten by (then) Renault world series champion Heikki Kovalinen! (And Coulthard keeps getting knocked out in the first round) Belive it or not though, I do still follow modern day F1 despite all that in the crazy hope that one day, it may actually produce a decent race. at the moment it appears that the current crop of F1 drivers could not produce this even if they were all given shopping trolleys. There are a few talents in F1 which are wasted on such an easy sport. |
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| dcoulthard19 | Aug 29 2007, 12:07 PM Post #30 |
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Chief Engineer
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F1 drivers joining other series just isn't possible these days, like SAFC fan says earlier they have too many committements, from testing to attending sponsorship events. These things take alot of their time up Like as an F1 driver isn't that easy as people are made to believe. And F1 races will often fall on the same day as other major events, for instance you can't compete in F1 and champcar at the same time, it just isn't possiblem surely people can see that. Alot of the examples you give are in low profile areas of motorsport and in alot of those cases not world championships so huge air miles aren't neccessary to be able to compete in more than one championship and things like sponsorship and testing don't play a huge part. Also there is a commercial aspect to this, for instance Vodafone give alot of money to mclaren as part of their deal and they use Lewis Hamilton in their adverts, say Lewis decides to race in DTM too and gets injured and can't race in F1 for a while then Vodafone lose out because they have Hamilton in their adverts but with him not racing the adverts won't have the affect and Vodafone will want to spot paying Mclaren money and it all becomes mess. I haven't explained that very well but I hope you see what point I am making. However alot of F1 drivers jump at the chance to do other things once they retire from F1, like Hakkinen in DTM, Villeneuve has now joined NASCAR. IF drivers had the time during their F1 careers and their sponsors allowed my opinion is that some would join other championships at the same time. They are all racers, they are in racing because they enjoy it. |
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