Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Pit Lane. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
"Rosberg could be the next big thing"
Topic Started: Aug 20 2007, 08:54 AM (398 Views)
NewMrMe
Engineer
[ *  *  *  * ]
Norbert,Aug 20 2007
01:38 PM
dcoulthard19,Aug 20 2007
09:54 AM
Sir Frank Williams reckons Rosberg could be the next big thing and could challenge Hamilton in the future.

Do you agree?

Nope, I reckon he's the next Button..... talks a good talk, hyped up, does the odd impressive thing in the first year, then settles down to an also-ran role for the rest of his career involving the odd contract dispute, lots of women and money, but ultimately no results worth mentioning.

Considering Rosberg is contracted to Williams next year the rumours about where he maybe going, may mean the contract dispute is already in the making.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JOSEPH SARANDOS
Member Avatar
Refueller
[ *  *  * ]
Even if Rosberg is much improved over his debut year, which team will allow him to become a contender?


Seems like for the next few years at least, all the top seats are taken.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rams
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I'm sick of people saying Rosberg had a great debut, he showed potential but that's it. Let's see:

Crashing into the back of someone and needing a front wing change = 0pts
Setting fastest lap = 0pts
Overtaking = 0pts

Finishing 7th = 2pts
Finishing 5th = 4pts

So I'm sorry, but scoring 2 less points than Webber does not constitute a great debut.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJHSaints
Member Avatar
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I thought he had a good debut, but the rest of his first season was poor and had it not been for that one race at Bahrain he could have been out of a job.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
safc_fan89
Member Avatar
safc_fan89
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
RJHSaints,Aug 20 2007
11:29 PM
safc_fan89,Aug 20 2007
07:13 PM
RJHSaints,Aug 20 2007
02:35 PM
There are three reasons why I'm skeptical of Rosberg and don't think the hype should be believed (at least not yet).

Firstly, he was well beaten by Webber last year. This is probably the main cause of my skepticism. Several people have said that Webber is destined never to win a title or even a race, so that casts doubt on Rosberg, even if he is slightly younger.

Secondly, he is still making what you might call rookie mistakes in his second season. For example, he went off 3-4 times at Bahrain, and failed to finish in the races of attrition where his best chance of points were.

Thirdly, Wurz has been out of competitive F1 racing for such a long time that he's almost impossible to use as a yardstick for Rosberg. OK so we know Rosberg is probably quicker than Wurz in terms of raw pace (though I think that gap has narrowed over the course of the season) but that doesn't mean much. Fisichella was significantly faster than Wurz when Wurz last had a proper crack at F1, and whilst it is obviously possible that Wurz may have improved and Fisi worsened since then, any attempt to actually be certain of those things is doomed to failure.

All three of those things considered, I don't know how anyone can possibly be tipping Rosberg to win a title yet. The fact he has time on his side doesn't change the facts above which make him completely unproven.

Point 1, no-one has said that last season he was that great. He started very well but then when things got tough, instead of working to improve he just kept trying too hard, resulting in a number of DNFs. You also forget that drivers can do something known as 'improving'. By his own admission last season wasn't good enough, and I think that shows in his driving.

POint 2. In first race of attrition he was unfortunate in that his first stop fell under safety car conditions, and he had no alternative but to stop. He fell off the road at Nurburgring yes, and so did others. As for going off the road several times in one race, Alonso and Kimi did that in Canada. Massa had a dreadful weekend at Hungary. Heidfeld and Kubica collided inexplicably at the Nurburgring, and so on. No driver is perfect, having a bad weekend isn't rookie mistakes, because Schumacher had a few disasters even last year and he was anything but a rookie.

POint 3, so what you are saying is that no-one can be used to compare him against, which is a real help.

As for saying he is unproven, how many more races must he do to achieve provenship?

Rosberg is one of the few drivers outside Ferrari and Mclaren to have impressed me this season. Others are the 2 BMW drivers and Sutil, and Kovalainen from the last half dozen races or so. His raw pace is the most impressive. Of course that does not mean he will go on to win the title, I haven't said as much, but I think the fact that he can score points in races of no attrition, and comfortably, not just nicking 8th due to a retirement, in a car I would rank 5th on the grid at best, shows why he is a better driver than Wurz, and one of the more underrated drivers on the grid.

It's all opinion and anyone can twist the facts as much as they like in order to reach the conclusion they want to hear. But I reckon Frank Williams is correct in saying that Rosberg can be every bit as good as Hamilton, if he ever gets the chance to prove it.

Norbert, when does he talk a good talk? I don't recall him ever being interviewed about anything worthwhile this season...ITV have forgotten about him, as has everyone due to Hamilton.

Point 1-Who's to say Wurz isn't simply making him look good? See my point 3. I personally don't think Rosberg has improved significantly since last year. Last year he had some pace but not the consistency, this year it seems to be same old Nico again. The thing is, Wurz is solid and reliable but not very quick. Webber was solid, reliable and quick, and beat Rosberg easily. And at this rate, Wurz is also going to beat Rosberg.

Point 2-Whilst you are right that Alonso and Kimi both went off the road, both were under severe pressure from thewir team mates at the time of their mistakes and thus they are a little more understandable. Rosberg was clearly under no pressure from Wurz at the time he went off the road 3-4 times in Bahrain.

I realise that everyone makes driver errors from time to time, but Rosberg does seem to make them more often than most. And if we're comparing him to Hamilton here, well, Hamilton has made only a couple of very small errors, despite the pressure of a WDC challenge and being in his rookie year.

Point 3. I'm saying that Wurz isn't an accurate yardstick because we don't know how good he is and before spilling our guts at how great Rosberg's suddenly become we should wait and see how he does against a driver who's proven at the top level of F1, which Wurz sadly isn't. Although I do like Alex, I also think he's not as good as Webber even. So we should calm down before proclaiming Rosberg the next big thing because the last time he faced a proven team mate, he was beaten solidly.

As for Williams being the 5th best car on the grid. Right now, I would agree that it is. Rosberg did score a lot of points early in the season, when Renault, Red Bull and Toyota were still getting their acts together. He hasn't scored for quite a few races now, and hasn't really looked like scoring.

I agree it's all opinion for the time being. We will have to wait and see how Rosberg does if and when he actually gets a chance in a big team.

So only if you are under pressure from your teammates you can make mistakes? Rubbish. If I didn't think any better you just don't like him for some reason, which is fair enough I guess.

IIRC he scored points in the last race. And if you say Wurz can't be used as a yardstick, then who can, because they can't all be teammates with Alonso can they...

<no>
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Monty
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Rams,Aug 20 2007
11:31 PM
I'm sick of people saying Rosberg had a great debut, he showed potential but that's it. Let's see:

Crashing into the back of someone and needing a front wing change = 0pts
Setting fastest lap = 0pts
Overtaking = 0pts

Finishing 7th = 2pts
Finishing 5th = 4pts

So I'm sorry, but scoring 2 less points than Webber does not constitute a great debut.

Even although Webber finished 6th? <hitwall>
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
safc_fan89
Member Avatar
safc_fan89
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Rams,Aug 21 2007
12:31 AM
I'm sick of people saying Rosberg had a great debut, he showed potential but that's it.  Let's see:

Crashing into the back of someone and needing a front wing change = 0pts
Setting fastest lap = 0pts
Overtaking = 0pts

Finishing 7th = 2pts
Finishing 6TH= 3pts**

So I'm sorry, but scoring 2 (!!) less points than Webber does not constitute a great debut.

Who's impressed you more this season, Ralf or Sutil?

Fisichella or Kovalainen?

Raikkonen or Massa?

Webber scored more points that day than Rosberg, but also that day, Raikkonen finished 3rd from the back of the grid, and got considerably more praise than Schumacher and Alonso did. My point being that scoring points may count towards the championship, but you have to be extremely short-sighted if that is all you use to compare drivers. Plus, get your facts right, makes your argument look stronger.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rams
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
DavidColthard II,Aug 21 2007
08:03 AM
Rams,Aug 20 2007
11:31 PM
I'm sick of people saying Rosberg had a great debut, he showed potential but that's it.  Let's see:

Crashing into the back of someone and needing a front wing change = 0pts
Setting fastest lap = 0pts
Overtaking = 0pts

Finishing 7th = 2pts
Finishing 5th = 4pts

So I'm sorry, but scoring 2 less points than Webber does not constitute a great debut.

Even although Webber finished 6th? <hitwall>

Ok Webber only scored 1 more, but the rest of my point still stands tbh <yes>
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Monty
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
He came from dead last to 7th, in a midfield car set 15 of the 30 fastest laps and had the pace to win in his rookie race, i dont see whats not impressive about it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rams
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
safc_fan89,Aug 21 2007
08:04 AM
Who's impressed you more this season, Ralf or Sutil?

Fisichella or Kovalainen?

Raikkonen or Massa?

Webber scored more points that day than Rosberg, but also that day, Raikkonen finished 3rd from the back of the grid, and got considerably more praise than Schumacher and Alonso did. My point being that scoring points may count towards the championship, but you have to be extremely short-sighted if that is all you use to compare drivers. Plus, get your facts right, makes your argument look stronger.

Are Ralf and Sutil driving the same car?

I'm not sure the point you're making about the other pairing because the driver with most points HAS done the better job.

Scoring points is the only thing that matters in F1, so if I am short sighted then so is the entire F1 championship <doh>

And as I just said, the point is that Webber finished AHEAD of Rosberg, therefore he did a better job.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Andy
Member Avatar

Moderator
Remember that Rosberg tripped over some people in the first corner and had to pit at the end of the first lap, so he actually drove to seventh from the back of the field. Also he drove something like twenty of the thirty fastest laps in that race.

The point Chris is making is not that scoring points is meaningless, but that assessing the quality of drivers based entirely on points scores can be misleading. Who drove the better race in France, Hamilton or Alonso? Most people would say Alonso, yet he scored four fewer points than Hamilton thanks to a qualifying mishap and a dreadful pit strategy. Equally, it is silly to suggest that Wurz is doing a better job than Rosberg, based entirely on the fact that he has scored more points, because looking closer at the situations in which those points were scored shows that luck - although I don't like to use that word much - has played a huge part in the fortunes of both this season.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rams
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Rosberg admitted that the incident was his fault, so he doesn't deserve to have that as an exenuating circumstance. There are of course races where people perform but don't get the reward such as Indy for Rosberg, but I feel it's prudent to judge drivers alomost purely on their contribution to the championship as "points mean prizes" as they say.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJHSaints
Member Avatar
Chief Engineer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
safc_fan89,Aug 21 2007
06:49 AM
RJHSaints,Aug 20 2007
11:29 PM
safc_fan89,Aug 20 2007
07:13 PM
RJHSaints,Aug 20 2007
02:35 PM
There are three reasons why I'm skeptical of Rosberg and don't think the hype should be believed (at least not yet).

Firstly, he was well beaten by Webber last year. This is probably the main cause of my skepticism. Several people have said that Webber is destined never to win a title or even a race, so that casts doubt on Rosberg, even if he is slightly younger.

Secondly, he is still making what you might call rookie mistakes in his second season. For example, he went off 3-4 times at Bahrain, and failed to finish in the races of attrition where his best chance of points were.

Thirdly, Wurz has been out of competitive F1 racing for such a long time that he's almost impossible to use as a yardstick for Rosberg. OK so we know Rosberg is probably quicker than Wurz in terms of raw pace (though I think that gap has narrowed over the course of the season) but that doesn't mean much. Fisichella was significantly faster than Wurz when Wurz last had a proper crack at F1, and whilst it is obviously possible that Wurz may have improved and Fisi worsened since then, any attempt to actually be certain of those things is doomed to failure.

All three of those things considered, I don't know how anyone can possibly be tipping Rosberg to win a title yet. The fact he has time on his side doesn't change the facts above which make him completely unproven.

Point 1, no-one has said that last season he was that great. He started very well but then when things got tough, instead of working to improve he just kept trying too hard, resulting in a number of DNFs. You also forget that drivers can do something known as 'improving'. By his own admission last season wasn't good enough, and I think that shows in his driving.

POint 2. In first race of attrition he was unfortunate in that his first stop fell under safety car conditions, and he had no alternative but to stop. He fell off the road at Nurburgring yes, and so did others. As for going off the road several times in one race, Alonso and Kimi did that in Canada. Massa had a dreadful weekend at Hungary. Heidfeld and Kubica collided inexplicably at the Nurburgring, and so on. No driver is perfect, having a bad weekend isn't rookie mistakes, because Schumacher had a few disasters even last year and he was anything but a rookie.

POint 3, so what you are saying is that no-one can be used to compare him against, which is a real help.

As for saying he is unproven, how many more races must he do to achieve provenship?

Rosberg is one of the few drivers outside Ferrari and Mclaren to have impressed me this season. Others are the 2 BMW drivers and Sutil, and Kovalainen from the last half dozen races or so. His raw pace is the most impressive. Of course that does not mean he will go on to win the title, I haven't said as much, but I think the fact that he can score points in races of no attrition, and comfortably, not just nicking 8th due to a retirement, in a car I would rank 5th on the grid at best, shows why he is a better driver than Wurz, and one of the more underrated drivers on the grid.

It's all opinion and anyone can twist the facts as much as they like in order to reach the conclusion they want to hear. But I reckon Frank Williams is correct in saying that Rosberg can be every bit as good as Hamilton, if he ever gets the chance to prove it.

Norbert, when does he talk a good talk? I don't recall him ever being interviewed about anything worthwhile this season...ITV have forgotten about him, as has everyone due to Hamilton.

Point 1-Who's to say Wurz isn't simply making him look good? See my point 3. I personally don't think Rosberg has improved significantly since last year. Last year he had some pace but not the consistency, this year it seems to be same old Nico again. The thing is, Wurz is solid and reliable but not very quick. Webber was solid, reliable and quick, and beat Rosberg easily. And at this rate, Wurz is also going to beat Rosberg.

Point 2-Whilst you are right that Alonso and Kimi both went off the road, both were under severe pressure from thewir team mates at the time of their mistakes and thus they are a little more understandable. Rosberg was clearly under no pressure from Wurz at the time he went off the road 3-4 times in Bahrain.

I realise that everyone makes driver errors from time to time, but Rosberg does seem to make them more often than most. And if we're comparing him to Hamilton here, well, Hamilton has made only a couple of very small errors, despite the pressure of a WDC challenge and being in his rookie year.

Point 3. I'm saying that Wurz isn't an accurate yardstick because we don't know how good he is and before spilling our guts at how great Rosberg's suddenly become we should wait and see how he does against a driver who's proven at the top level of F1, which Wurz sadly isn't. Although I do like Alex, I also think he's not as good as Webber even. So we should calm down before proclaiming Rosberg the next big thing because the last time he faced a proven team mate, he was beaten solidly.

As for Williams being the 5th best car on the grid. Right now, I would agree that it is. Rosberg did score a lot of points early in the season, when Renault, Red Bull and Toyota were still getting their acts together. He hasn't scored for quite a few races now, and hasn't really looked like scoring.

I agree it's all opinion for the time being. We will have to wait and see how Rosberg does if and when he actually gets a chance in a big team.

So only if you are under pressure from your teammates you can make mistakes? Rubbish. If I didn't think any better you just don't like him for some reason, which is fair enough I guess.

IIRC he scored points in the last race. And if you say Wurz can't be used as a yardstick, then who can, because they can't all be teammates with Alonso can they...

<no>

I have nothing against Rosberg but don't believe he is as good as you say. And I didn't say that you only ever make mistakes when you're under pressure, but they are more understandable. If you make a mistake when your team mate is putting you under pressure it can be chalked down to the pressure of the situation. Other times it can be chalked down to lack of concentration, or pushing too hard, which are genuine technical issues and not a mistake driven by pressure.

That's my opinion anyway.

Also, interesting that you chose to focus on that argument, where I may possibly be wrong, however, it is fairly unimportant, as opposed to responding to my other (stronger) arguments against Rosberg.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · Formula 1 · Next Topic »
Add Reply