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Which car is worse? The 1999 BAR or the 2007 Honda
Topic Started: Aug 18 2007, 10:10 AM (236 Views)
Monty
Chief Engineer
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So what would you say is the worst car out of the two? considering that BAR said they would win in their first year and didnt score a point was dreadful. This years car as everyone knows is rubbish, but what would you say was better?
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dcoulthard19
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Interesting question there fellow DC fan.

I would say the 99 car was worse because it was slow and barely finished any races, it showed a bit of speed in a couple of races but most of the time they were well down.

This year's Honda is slow but it does finish the more majority of races and at least it has a point whereas in 99 there were no points.


If you look at it budget and resource wise it makes this year's car look alot worse although in 99 they had a pretty big budget too if I remember rightly.
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Monty
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Im not really sure because both cars have their faults this years is very slow and the Bar from 1999 was a more unreliable version of this years redbull. It did have some pace with Villeneuve qualifying 5th in Imola and running 3rd for much of the Spanish race. It was a poor car though and JV retired frm the first 13 races :o.Although JV finished 8th in Monza so using todays points system they would be even, two poor cars though will be interesting to see if this supposed "hard work back at the factory" which you here all the time has translated into some pace next weekend.
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safc_fan89
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The 1999 car WAS in the top 10 several times. It was better relative to the other cars. The 07 Honda is just shit on wheels.
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dcoulthard19
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Remember it took 9 or 10 races before Jacques even registered a finish, most of those due to failures, this year's car isn't that bad on the reliability front.
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safc_fan89
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So? It's 2 seconds or more off the pace!
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dcoulthard19
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We're not comparing the 2007 Honda with the 2007 mclaren, we are comparing it with the 99 BAR as it says in the topic title.

To which there is no 2 second gap not that it is easy to compare between cars from different season.

This years Honda is poor as was the 99 BAR(apart from one or two top 10s), this year Honda is way more reliable than the 99 BAR was so has the edge.

If a car is fast but can't finish then its crap but the 99 BAR was hardly ever fast making even crappier.



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Monty
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To be fair though BAR had no starting point whereas Honda had a race winning car last year, BAR had a Tyrell <LOL> . Also they have good drivers unlike 99 so that might make the car look better than it is <stayawake>
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safc_fan89
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dcoulthard19,Aug 18 2007
12:34 PM
We're not comparing the 2007 Honda with the 2007 mclaren, we are comparing it with the 99 BAR as it says in the topic title.

To which there is no 2 second gap not that it is easy to compare between cars from different season.

This years Honda is poor as was the 99 BAR(apart from one or two top 10s), this year Honda is way more reliable than the 99 BAR was so has the edge.

If a car is fast but can't finish then its crap but the 99 BAR was hardly ever fast making even crappier.

The closer you are to the front, the better the car. This season's Honda is the worst Honda/BAR there has ever been.

Reliability counts for nothing if you finish last.
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Red Andy
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The 1999 BAR had the pace of a midfield car, but was very unreliable. (didn't JV retire from something like the first 11 races of the season?) The 2007 Honda is just slow; definitely this year's car is worse.
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dcoulthard19
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Quote:
 
Reliability counts for nothing if you finish last.


And pace counts for nothing if you don't finish, it works both ways.

The worse reliability I have ever seen in F1 is why that 99 BAR car got no points as people have said in this thread there was a bit of pace there at times.

At least this year's Honda can get points when others fail and at the end of the day you are judged on the points you score and your position in championship standings. Unfortunately for Honda they haven't taken all those opportunities which came at Spain, Canada and Europe but thats mainly down to their poor tactics than the car itself.


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NewMrMe
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The 1999 BAR was unreliable but there were several races where it was in contention for points on merit if it had of held together. This year's Honda needs other people to drop out to score. Remember that in Spain 1999 Villeneuve ran third for a large portion of the race. This year's Honda has never been anywhere near challenging for a podium. Also, had the championship scored down to 8th place in 1999, BAR would have scored more then the 1 points Honda currently have. I say the 99 BAR was the better car.

A comparison of the results.

BAR 1999

Australia
Villeneuve Q11 Retired Broken Wing
Zonta Q19 Retired Gearbox

Brazil
Villeneuve Q21 (Qualifying times were disallowed as a penalty) Retired Gearbox
Zonta DNS Qualifying Accident

San Marino
Villeneuve Q5 Retired Gearbox
Salo Q19 R7

Monaco
Villeneuve Q8 Retired Oil Leak
Salo Q12 Retired Brakes

Spain
Villeneuve Q6 Retired Gearbox
Salo Q16 R8

Canada
Villeneuve Q16 Retired Accident
Zonta Q17 Retired Accident

France
Villeneuve Q12 Retired Spin
Zonta Q10 R9

Britain
Villeneuve Q9 Retired Halfshaft
Zonta Q16 Retires Suspension

Austria
Villeneuve Q9 Retired Halfshaft
Zonta Q15 Retired Clutch

Germany
Villeneuve Q12 Retired Accident
Zonta Q18 Retired Engine

Hungary
Villeneuve Q9 Retired Clutch
Zonta Q17 R13

Belgium
Villeneuve Q11 R15
Zonta Q14 Retired Gearbox

Italy
Villeneuve Q11 R8
Zonta Q18 Retired Wheel Bearing

Europe
Villeneuve Q8 Retired Clutch
Zonta Q17 R8

Malaysia
Villeneuve Q10 Retired Hydraulics
Zonta Q13 Retired Engine

Japan
Villeneuve Q11 R9
Zonta Q18 R12

Honda 2007

Australia
Button Q14 R15
Barrichello Q16 R11

Malaysia
Button Q15 R12
Barrichello Q22 (Engine penalty) R11

Bahrain
Button Q16 Retired Accident
Barrichello Q15 R13

Spain
Button Q14 R12
Barrichello Q12 R10

Monaco
Button Q10 R11
Barrichello Q9 R10

Canada
Button Q15 Retired Gearbox
Barrichello Q13 R12

USA
Button Q13 R12
Barrichello Q15 Retired Accident

France
Button Q12 R8
Barrichello Q13 R11

Britain
Button Q17 R10
Barrichello Q13 R9

Europe
Button Q17 Retired Spin
Barrichello Q14 R11

Hungary
Button Q17 Retired Throttle
Barrichello Q18 R18

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Monty
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NewMrMe,Aug 18 2007
02:09 PM
Remember that in Spain 1999 Villeneuve ran third for a large portion of the race.

I said that in post 3 <rolleyes>
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Monty
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dcoulthard19,Aug 18 2007
02:00 PM
Spain, Canada and Europe but thats mainly down to their poor tactics than the car itself.

I wouldnt say there was really an oppurtunity in Spain, all the cars in front of Barrichello were just plain quicker.
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safc_fan89
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dcoulthard19,Aug 18 2007
03:00 PM
Quote:
 
Reliability counts for nothing if you finish last.


And pace counts for nothing if you don't finish, it works both ways.

The worse reliability I have ever seen in F1 is why that 99 BAR car got no points as people have said in this thread there was a bit of pace there at times.

At least this year's Honda can get points when others fail and at the end of the day you are judged on the points you score and your position in championship standings. Unfortunately for Honda they haven't taken all those opportunities which came at Spain, Canada and Europe but thats mainly down to their poor tactics than the car itself.

If they haven't taken the opportunities, then that is their problem. And you fail to mention that they haven't taken the chances because they were too slow! In 1999 they were a new team. This season there is no excuse.
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