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Will Mclaren win the points appeal?; I didn't know they were appealing
Topic Started: Aug 16 2007, 06:45 PM (216 Views)
dcoulthard19
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I just found somewhere that mclaren are appealing against their points ban in Hungary which I didn't find out about since I came back from France so apologies if there was already a topic on this somewhere.

Can they win the points back?

I think its unlikely as I find the FIA are pretty set in their ways these days and won't revert any decisions, the last I remember coming in 99 at before the title decider where Ferrari got back the points they lost from malaysia due to illegal car parts(which I think were the barge boards, somebody please correct me on that). Also giving points back to mclaren would create a huge backlash from Ferrari most probably and more unwanted press for F1 so the FIA would surely have that in mind and of course there are the usual Ferrai conspiracists.

I personnally don't think Mclaren deserved their points stripped for it although I agreed with Alonso being put back 5 places, it was his doing after all, don't really say why mclaren need to be punished heavily for I only saw the race that weekend so I suppose I don't know the full story.
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Red Andy
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McLaren's appeal will fail; as you say, the FIA are very much set in their ways and unlikely to reverse the decision of the Stewards (although there is a precedent for that - the FIA ruled the mass dampers illegal last year even though the Stewards had declared them to be within the rules). One thing is for certain, however: this whole scenario won't do anything to quash the rumours of Ferrari saying "jump," and the FIA replying, "To what conclusion?"
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Rob
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Red Andy,Aug 16 2007
01:49 PM
One thing is for certain, however: this whole scenario won't do anything to quash the rumours of Ferrari saying "jump," and the FIA replying, "To what conclusion?"

Most likely because Ferrari are in no way involved in this situation. <thumbsup>



Anyway McLaren won't win their appeal, but they should.



I think the FIA should have given them a choice after quali. Send Alonso to the back and get WCC points, or have him start 6th, and McLaren get no WCC points. <devil>
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Red Andy
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Rob,Aug 16 2007
08:21 PM
Most likely because Ferrari are in no way involved in this situation. <thumbsup>

Indeed, but the fact that this decision seems suspiciously to impact the WCC chances of Ferrari's greatest rivals will give the conspiracy-minded an opportunity to do a little conclusion-leaping of their own.
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everythingoes
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I'm not sure anyone is clear as to why McLaren were punished in the first place. If it was Alonso's decision to delay departure from the pits, then its his fault and McLaren should not have been penalised anyway.
However, in my opinion, it was Ron's attempt at being clever that screwed them over. In the immediate aftermath of Qualigate, he went and announced that the team had held Alonso back. He did this in order to prevent Alonso from being sent to the back of the grid. The F.I.A. decided to believe him and punished the team for influencing the result <whistle>
If thats what happened, then theres no way McLaren will get their points back on appeal <no>
<peek>
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PiquetFan
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everythingoes,Aug 17 2007
06:43 AM
However, in my opinion, it was Ron's attempt at being clever that screwed them over. In the immediate aftermath of Qualigate, he went and announced that the team had held Alonso back. He did this in order to prevent Alonso from being sent to the back of the grid.

I agree etg. And this is why I believe that the penalty was correct, and why I believe that they should not win their appeal.

They may still get the points back. On the other hand, they may lay themselves open to a stiffer penalty if the authorities believe that this has infringed the terms of their suspended sentence for the spying shenanigans.
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safc_fan89
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They won't win the appeal, but it is one of the shoddiest rulings there has been recently. I see no reason for penalising the team other than to please Ferrari. Cynical, but it's getting like this far too often for my liking.
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u4coffee
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no, they wont win
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Grieves
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My reading of it was that McLaren got punished for trying to pull the wool over the Stewards eyes.

With Ron fabricating a story about waiting for gaps to clear Alonso, which the stewards disproved and Alonso claiming to be talking on the radio, which they found suspicious, both driver and team got punished.

Link

I think the only way McLaren will get points back would be if they provided the recordings from the pit lane conversations that backs up their story.

Since I think Ron was bullshitting to clear Alonso, I don't see that happening.
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Rob
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safc_fan89,Aug 17 2007
03:42 AM
They won't win the appeal, but it is one of the shoddiest rulings there has been recently. I see no reason for penalising the team other than to please Ferrari. Cynical, but it's getting like this far too often for my liking.

uuuummmm, McLaren haven't been docked points (to Ferrari's benefit) since 2000. Once every 7 years is to often for you? Are you a Galapagos Tortoise?
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safc_fan89
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I don't think so, but you never know...

I'm on about how I said before that there is always something that goes on at this time of the season, which benefits Ferrari. Removal of 15 points certainly helps their quest to win the Constructors' title. As I said, it's getting too repetitive to be a coincidence, in my opinion.
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Rob
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If that is what you are looking for then yes I can see how you would say that. But I disagree. McLaren lost 10 points for Mikka not having an FIA seal on his car in 2000. 01, 02 nothing. 03 there was the tire saga, but IMO that was no different that the Ferrari floor issue this year (you may disagree) one benefited Ferrari one didn't. There was also the Ferrari flexi wing last year, but Renault's front wind flexed just as much, and McLaren's wing flexes this year, so I don't see how you can complain about that. There was the Alonso penalty at Monza last year, and I have admitted it was bunk, but no one seems to want to admit that Alonso got away with some "chicanery" during that race as well.

Honestly if Ferrari seems to be involved in more controversy than any other team, it is as a result of them being the most successful team over the past 7 years.


<topic>
Anyway I think the McLaren WCC points loss was more of a result of them trying to pull a fast one on the stewards. McLaren didn't deserve to lose their WCC points, but that is only my opinion.
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Red Andy
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Rob,Aug 17 2007
02:13 PM
03 there was the tire saga, but IMO that was no different that the Ferrari floor issue this year (you may disagree) one benefited Ferrari one didn't. There was also the Ferrari flexi wing last year, but Renault's front wind flexed just as much, and McLaren's wing flexes this year, so I don't see how you can complain about that.

Here we have the crux of the issue: precedent-setting.

In 2003 the Michelin tyres were deemed illegal after a complaint was made. The tyres were passing the FIA-sanctioned tests, but this was due to a loophole in the regulations rather than them being strictly legal. So the FIA changed the test, Michelin's tyre failed it, and the tyres were therefore banned. As you say, the same thing happened with Ferrari's flexi-floor this year - BUT since the precedent had already been set, the FIA had no choice but to act in the way they did (i.e. redesigning the tests to close the loophole Ferrari had exploited).

With the flexi-wings, Ferrari were among the first teams to be found using them (BMW were also implicated as well, if I remember correctly). Oddly enough, the wings were deemed legal. Again, a precedent had been set, so when it came to the issue of Renault and McLaren's front wings, the FIA could not act.

The same, I think, is true of Alonso's penalty at Hungary last year. He was caught passing under yellow flags in Friday practice, and deemed to be driving dangerously when he braked in front of Doornbos (the Stewards called it a brake test, although it was more like not accelerating out of the corner as expected). He was penalised by having two seconds added onto his qualifying time, which was a penalty that had (to my knowledge) never been applied before. So, again, a precedent was set. The Stewards then had to act on this precedent when Schumacher passed under red flags the following day, giving him a penalty as well. But what if Schumacher had erred first, and Alonso later? What would have happened then?

This is all speculation, and may well just be clutching at straws, but it does look a bit suspicious.
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