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BUTTON; HONDA
Topic Started: Feb 27 2007, 10:56 AM (686 Views)
TheCompleteGuitarist
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sportsman,Feb 27 2007
03:03 PM
The Saint,Feb 27 2007
02:13 PM
“He proved quite conclusively last year that he hasn't got what it takes to be WDC.” It is my favorite because I am wondering just what he did last year to prove that? It makes no sense. He outscored his team mate by almost twice as many points, he won a race in a 2nd tier car! Do you mean that to show he can be a WDC he has to win a WDC in a car which at its best was the 3rd best team in the field and at its worst was a lot lower! So go on, drop me a list of drivers who have won WDC’s in cars that were not belonging to one of the top 3 teams.
e.

True enough, but why not consider these drivers.
Graham Hill 1962 BRM
Jack Brabham 1966 Brabham
Jackie Stewart 1969 Matra.
None of these drivers were driving a car with a proven history and in the case of Matra they only entered F1 in 1968 with dismal results.

All these drivers were competing over 30 years ago when the driver meant so much more than the car. Put one guy in a mini and another in a fiesta and it's the driver that's going to make a difference.

Put Alonso in a Minardi and he's never going to win anything.

How long do we have to gone on like this going over the same points again and again.
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Norbert
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Jenson was far more impressive in 2005 than 2006. While the car is 75% of the excuse, the driver still has some part to play, and Jenson just doesn't seem to be the part that he might be. Look at other drivers in sh1te cars.... who other than Senna could have got the truly dreadful McLaren Ford onto the top step of the podium? Would anyone bar MS have got the 96 Ferrari there? Even, dare I say it, Damon Hill almost won in the Arrows Yamaha, bar a bit of bad luck at the end (some might say luck put him infront...). Jenson has yet to prove he's anything but another fair to middling driver who's there to make trhe numbers up. I'm still waiting for the win to back up the 'not in the slightest bit fortunate win in Hungary where he was the best of the best of the best (yeah, whatever)' victory where evryone fast fell off.....
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The Saint
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True enough, but why not consider these drivers.
Graham Hill 1962 BRM
Jack Brabham 1966 Brabham
Jackie Stewart 1969 Matra.
None of these drivers were driving a car with a proven history and in the case of Matra they only entered F1 in 1968 with dismal results.

I was not watching F1 at that time, so without checking I will have to take your drivers at face value.

But please take note that the 60's were nothing like F1 in the 80's, 90's and 21st century. Without a top car, you dont win races.
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Norbert
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Feb 27 2007
04:08 PM
Put Alonso in a Minardi and he's never going to win anything.

No, but if I recall correctly, he *did* drive one, and looked rather handier than his counterpart(s)....?
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John
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GordonB,Feb 27 2007
03:49 PM
he won a race and outscored the field over the final part of the season.....

If he had 'outscored' everone else he'd be WDC.... that is fact...

it is pointles outscoring others in the final part of a season... at best if lucky you might get a win.... but not a WDC
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The Saint
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Norbert,Feb 27 2007
04:11 PM
Jenson was far more impressive in 2005 than 2006. While the car is 75% of the excuse, the driver still has some part to play, and Jenson just doesn't seem to be the part that he might be. Look at other drivers in sh1te cars.... who other than Senna could have got the truly dreadful McLaren Ford onto the top step of the podium? Would anyone bar MS have got the 96 Ferrari there? Even, dare I say it, Damon Hill almost won in the Arrows Yamaha, bar a bit of bad luck at the end (some might say luck put him infront...). Jenson has yet to prove he's anything but another fair to middling driver who's there to make trhe numbers up. I'm still waiting for the win to back up the 'not in the slightest bit fortunate win in Hungary where he was the best of the best of the best (yeah, whatever)' victory where evryone fast fell off.....

Didnt Jenson put the Honda on the top step in 2006 or did I dream that one.

And whilst you may use Hill as an example in the Arrows, the Arrows was well suited to the track.


Aye only a true great could have put that crappy Honda on the top step in 2006.

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The Saint
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Norbert,Feb 27 2007
04:12 PM
TheCompleteGuitarist,Feb 27 2007
04:08 PM
Put Alonso in a Minardi and he's never going to win anything.

No, but if I recall correctly, he *did* drive one, and looked rather handier than his counterpart(s)....?

as Button has looked handy v. his counterparts since maturing as a driver.
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The Saint
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John,Feb 27 2007
04:14 PM
GordonB,Feb 27 2007
03:49 PM
he won a race and outscored the field over the final part of the season.....

If he had 'outscored' everone else he'd be WDC.... that is fact...

it is pointles outscoring others in the final part of a season... at best if lucky you might get a win.... but not a WDC

Why are you being so obtuse to the point made John.

He's not saying he should have been WDC, just stating that he was the top scorer of the later part of the season. I don’t get why you are arguing this fact.
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Norbert
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The Saint,Feb 27 2007
04:15 PM
Aye only a true great could have put that crappy Honda on the top step in 2006.

Pity that only Rubens and Jenson were driving last year, huh?

roflmao

The 2005 Honda could have been WDC material had the right driver been in it, I reckon Schumacher, Alonso or Raikonnen could have had the title, or a very good crack at it. Still, unless you put all the drivers in the same car, on the same track, at the same time, with the same everything, you'll never know who is the best, and you never will anyway.....
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theghostofnuvolari
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I did an analysis a while back that showed that while Rubens fastest laps averaged 0.6 seconds a lap slower than Schumacher in 2005, he was 0.4 seconds slower than JB in 2006.

For 2006 I removed the first 4 races as time for RB to get up to speed, and he was faster than JB at the 5th race.

Is it too much to imply that JB might only be 2/10ths slower than MS in his twilight years...

Or am I just in danger of allowing some facts get in the way of a good old slagging match...

<fight> <fight> <fight>
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John
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The Saint,Feb 27 2007
04:18 PM
I don’t get why you are arguing this fact.

because as any anti Schumacher fan will gladly tell you... the stats don't tell the whole picture....

It is a fact that between Hungary and Brazil (last 6 races) JB, FA and MS scored a total of 37, 34 and 32 points respectfully....

This is the 'out scoring the field' as was mentioned.... quite true... well done Jenson. <clap>

However, It is conveniently including Jonson's win in Hungary....

But start adding the scores at the next race Turkey.... and Alonso outscores the field.....

It also does not tell the fact that both FA and MS had one DNF each in those final races and it is safe to assume they would have scored had they not retired...

a 5th or higher for FA in Monza would have made him Highest scorer since Hungary

a 3rd or higher for MS in Japan the same...


So yes....JB was indeed (between HUN and BRA) the highest scorer....

but he was lucky to be and it was not a true reflection of his performance last season...

It is the same as saying that Massa outscored the field in the last race.... this also is a fact.... but meaningless
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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If Jenson is fair to middling what about the 18 drivers who finished behind him most of last seasons last 7 races.

They must be really crap. Especially his team mate who was WDC runner up on more than one occassion (I think).
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TheCompleteGuitarist
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I think fastest laps are a little meaninless really. It's possible to win all 17 races in a season and not score a single fastest lap or even a podium.
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John
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Feb 27 2007
04:54 PM
If Jenson is fair to middling what about the 18 drivers who finished behind him most of last seasons last 7 races.

They must be really crap. Especially his team mate who was WDC runner up on more than one occassion (I think).

Yes well done on beating the Red bulls... super aguri's.... torro rosso's.... williams in it's worst season for 30 years, BMW in it's first year.... the cremé de la cremé of F1 in 2006

Jenson was beaten by Kimi who suffered 6 DNF and no wins.... <doh>
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John
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Feb 27 2007
04:58 PM
It's possible to win all 17 races in a season and not score a single fastest lap or even a podium.

Actually..... I think you will find it is impossible to win all 17 races and not score a podium...

I recon you'd get about 17 Podiums... roflmao
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