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Could Webber win a WDC?; Where did he go wrong.
Topic Started: Feb 11 2007, 03:46 PM (941 Views)
dcoulthard19
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Quote:
 
BTW I am not one for bashing David, I really think he could have done so much more than he did. I would be delighted for him to do well, but after so many years or mediocrity I simply cannot see that happening


99 to 2001 could have been much greater years for David if his car was more reliable and if he had more support from the team and in particular Ron Dennis.

In 99 he had 6 failures, if he had finished some of those races and won the european GP which admits was a silly error he could have been champion, that year was a free for all and Mika ended up being champion despite making big errors in 2 or 3 of the races. In 2000 DC really looked good but in the last third of the season it didn't happen for him.

2001 he was brilliant up till Monaco, but then he got stuck on the grid on pole,if he had won that race then who knows, he had 4 failures after that which didn't help.

2003 could have started with 3 wins, he won in Aussie, he retired from the lead in malaysia and then there was the infamous red flag incident, with those 3 wins he would have been in a good position. This also happened to him once in 97 as well.

2nd half of 2003 and 2004 weren't great times, he had stayed at mclaren for too long..

If he had a bit more luck at times then maybe things could have been better for DC but to this day he remains one of the few drivers to have beaten MS in a straight fight on multiple occassions.

DC could have easily won more races in his career and maybe won a championship if the circumstances were right but thats just life.

I will rest my case there. :D

Anyway lets get back to topic.
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Penelope Pitstop
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dcoulthard19,Feb 12 2007
01:20 PM

DC could have easily won more races in his career and maybe won a championship if the circumstances were right but thats just life.

I will rest my case there.  :D 

Anyway lets get back to topic.


I can agree with your assertion. The difference is that I think he needed a bit more than luck to make the difference though.

And this IS kind of on topic anyway. David will be Mark's benchmark this year.

IF Mark is to show that he has the talent to be a champion then he needs to beat David fairly convincingly.

We should give him the first 6 races or so to "bed in" to the team again.

After that, it is make or break for the Aussie and I think he will come through the test in typical Aussie style.
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dcoulthard19
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well mark definitely needs to beat DC, not just by 5 or 10 points but by a longer margin to really convince me that he has something special which I suspect he won't do but we will see.

It will be fairly even between the 2 most of the time but I just think the odd incident mark may have may give DC the edge.

Also the other thing which may come into it is reliability, DC has never been lucky in that front but admittedly thats what you get by spending 9 years at mclaren. <no>
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safc_fan89
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dcoulthard19,Feb 12 2007
11:48 AM
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I feel that DC could show up Webber this year


People will say I am bias but I think that will happen.

DC is a far more complete driver than Webber, DC is a better racer, much better of the start line, can make moves stick and doesn't have the same magnetic attraction to incidents that Webber has.

Webber's advantage of course as people say lies in qualifying where he can do some bonanza laps but does he actually do them that often? Not really is the answer. His last really good quali lap was at Monaco last year and he didn't do many in 2005 either. DC can do some good quali laps when he puts his mind to it. Monaco 2001 anyone?

I don't dislike Webber, he think he has the signs of a good driver when he puts his mind to it but points wise DC will beat him this year, I would feel confident putting a 3 figure bet on it. :D

How do you know? Webber actually drove superbly for a lot of last season. He punched above his weight at Monaco, Australia and Germany last season, and I'm sure there are others which I can't remember. Only race where DC did the same was Monaco...and remember, before Klien had a mechanical issue he was ahead of DC.
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Penelope Pitstop
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dcoulthard19,Feb 12 2007
01:40 PM
well mark definitely needs to beat DC, not just by 5 or 10 points but by a longer margin to really convince me that he has something special which I suspect he won't do but we will see.

This season is going to be close. The Red Bull is probably nothing more than a strong midfield car so 5 to 10 points might represent a bigger margin than it sounds. Points will be widely spread and may be thin on the ground.

I won't set a points target, but I would say that in the last 12 races of the season mark needs to beat David at least 66% in both qualifying and final position.

If he can do that then he could, maybe one day, with the right car, a fair wind and the love of a good woman be a champion.
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Rob
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Penelope Pitstop,Feb 12 2007
07:56 AM
dcoulthard19,Feb 12 2007
01:40 PM
well mark definitely needs to beat DC, not just by 5 or 10 points but by a longer margin to really convince me that he has something special which I suspect he won't do but we will see.

This season is going to be close. The Red Bull is probably nothing more than a strong midfield car so 5 to 10 points might represent a bigger margin than it sounds. Points will be widely spread and may be thin on the ground.

I won't set a points target, but I would say that in the last 12 races of the season mark needs to beat David at least 66% in both qualifying and final position.

If he can do that then he could, maybe one day, with the right car, a fair wind and the love of a good woman be a champion.

No disrespect to DC, but the guy is not getting any younger and is old by F1 terms. Mark has to beat DC handily to have any chance to ever be consider a WDC threat. Otherwise the best he could hope for would to be someone's number 2.
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Paul_Murtagh
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You have to question Webber's ability against strong team-mates though. In 2002 he was a good driver and produced some good drives, but a lacklusture Alex Yoong and a rookie in Anthony Davidson were never going to push him too hard. In 2003 Pizzonia was never really given a fair chance with Jaguar and Justin Wilson never really got a chance to make an impact. In 2004 Webber raced against a novice Christian Klien and was expected to beat him. Yet come 2005 when he was put up against Nick Heidfeld, Nick was by far the stronger driver earning a pole and 3 podiums to Mark's single podium at Monaco, where Nick finished above him.

I think DC will beat Mark because all but one of Mark's team-mates were rookies, and the one that wasn't (Heidfeld) was able to put in a far better showing than Mark.
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Monty
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safc_fan89,Feb 12 2007
01:54 PM
Only race where DC did the same was Monaco...and remember, before Klien had a mechanical issue he was ahead of DC.

This is only because he was badly held up by Barrichello at the start if Fisi hadnt blocked him in qualifying he was easily fast enough for the top 6 and then who knows, if he had been in front of RB at the start he might have challenged JPM for second.

Q2 quali times, DC-1m 13.6
Klien-1m 14.7

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dcoulthard19
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DC and Webber's pace in testing has been similar so far so there are no signs that one is about to thrash the other.

In an even fight you have to back DC due his experience in the team, experience in F1 overall, and ability to get the car to the finish which Webber doesn't always have, he will be able to fight the lower end of the points on a regular basis, so will Webber but pace over a full race distance is questionable for him, he can be very fast in patches. It could take one mad race to decide this team battle and DC excels in those looking at past results. He has advantages.

It would be nice if the Red Bull car was fast later on in the season but I suspect it will be more of year building for the future but we will see.
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safc_fan89
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There can be as many excuses as you like...DC was outqualified by Doornbos twice in his 3 races. I think his time has been and gone, and I am backing Webber to show this.
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dcoulthard19
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This is only because he was badly held up by Barrichello at the start if Fisi hadnt blocked him in qualifying he was easily fast enough for the top 6 and then who knows, if he had been in front of RB at the start he might have challenged JPM for second.

Q2 quali times, DC-1m 13.6
Klien-1m 14.7


DC was also over all the back of Klien like a rash to the point that other cars may have started to gain on the Red Bulls and create a big jam. DC's pace over that whole weekend was very good.

2006 wasn't a great year for DC due to the car but at least he had a good race in Monaco, Indy, Canada and Hungary. The few chances he had that year he took, he could have had a point in china if it wasn't for Massa's savage move which on another forum I saw being compared to MS's move on jacques in jerez but I am sure on Massa's part it wasn't intentional but just bad judgement.
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Monty
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safc_fan89,Feb 12 2007
02:27 PM
There can be as many excuses as you like...DC was outqualified by Doornbos twice in his 3 races. I think his time has been and gone, and I am backing Webber to show this.

wrong DC outqualified him at Suzuka and Brazil ok so Doornbos had engine penaly in Brazil but still 2-1 DC, plus Coulthard was stopped being in the top 10 at China only by a radio communication problem.
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safc_fan89
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Minus engine pen, 2-1. I await your excuses after this season...you're just as bad as Saint is with Button roflmao
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Penelope Pitstop
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Paul_Murtagh,Feb 12 2007
02:18 PM
You have to question Webber's ability against strong team-mates though.
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Yet come 2005 when he was put up against Nick Heidfeld, Nick was by far the stronger driver earning a pole and 3 podiums to Mark's single podium at Monaco, where Nick finished above him.

I think DC will beat Mark because all but one of Mark's team-mates were rookies, and the one that wasn't (Heidfeld) was able to put in a far better showing than Mark.

Is this the same season in which Mark beat Nick by 36 points to 28?

I know you might argue that Nick didn't finish the season for Williams but Nick's previous six races netted only 3 points.

So I don't think that one could fairly say that Nick was "by far the stronger driver"

Nick *may* have had the edge, but in reality, that's about it.

What were their respective qualifying positions? Is this a measure of ability to stay out of trouble or of pace?
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Monty
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dcoulthard19,Feb 12 2007
02:31 PM
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This is only because he was badly held up by Barrichello at the start if Fisi hadnt blocked him in qualifying he was easily fast enough for the top 6 and then who knows, if he had been in front of RB at the start he might have challenged JPM for second.

Q2 quali times, DC-1m 13.6
Klien-1m 14.7


DC was also over all the back of Klien like a rash to the point that other cars may have started to gain on the Red Bulls and create a big jam. DC's pace over that whole weekend was very good.

2006 wasn't a great year for DC due to the car but at least he had a good race in Monaco, Indy, Canada and Hungary. The few chances he had that year he took, he could have had a point in china if it wasn't for Massa's savage move which on another forum I saw being compared to MS's move on jacques in jerez but I am sure on Massa's part it wasn't intentional but just bad judgement.

Accept Monaco the best track for redbull last year was Malaysia of course neither driver finished the race but they were similar to mclarens pace. In qualifying 1 they were both in the top 5 or 6 then in q2 were very quick but DC made a mistake costing him half a second in s2 after being 2ndfastest in the entire session to fisi in s1, Klien finished q2 in 6th and didnt run much in the final session an qualified 8th. In the race they had bad luck Klien ran into Raikkonen and DC after going from 19th (engine penalty) to 10th in a few laps retired with a hydraulic problem at the time he was easily keeping pace with Shumi with presumably more fuel.
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