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The DC202/SAINT Button is great/crap thread; Beware of mud slinging!
Topic Started: Feb 9 2007, 09:39 PM (1,678 Views)
flood1
Chief Engineer
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As a newcomer, I have found this board and this thread interesting, and I have found the banter to be predictable. My debate judge said that when losing the argument, one should never attack the opponent and the opponent should never counter attack.

That being said, the results indicate, when taken as a whole, that Alonso is the best, Kimi is probably next, and Jenson has a long way to go. Does he have the talent to become WDC? Probably. Will he be WDC in 2007? Probably not.

Massa, Kimi, or Alonso have the best chance. But, I'm hoping Button will slip in there and add fuel to this debate.
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Monty
Chief Engineer
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Red Andy,Feb 11 2007
07:19 PM
dcoulthard19,Feb 11 2007
07:13 PM
I think in 2004 the only race he should have definitely won was Monza, I said something similar to this earlier in the thread.

I would agree with that, although I would say it was fairly unforgivable that he didn't win it; he should have known that once Barrichello had switched to dries he would be unstoppable, and I think that if he had pushed harder to begin with he could have kept the Ferraris behind him. I think he only has himself to blame for losing that one.

This isnt a critisism because at indy 2004 Button retired but on that day the BAR was the fastest car on the track, even Jenson says it on the 04 dvd :D
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Monty
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flood1,Feb 11 2007
07:21 PM
As a newcomer, I have found this board and this thread interesting, and I have found the banter to be predictable. My debate judge said that when losing the argument, one should never attack the opponent and the opponent should never counter attack.

That being said, the results indicate, when taken as a whole, that Alonso is the best, Kimi is probably next, and Jenson has a long way to go. Does he have the talent to become WDC? Probably. Will he be WDC in 2007? Probably not.

Massa, Kimi, or Alonso have the best chance. But, I'm hoping Button will slip in there and add fuel to this debate.

Welcome Flood nice to have a new member <wave>
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safc_fan89
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safc_fan89
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TheCompleteGuitarist,Feb 11 2007
07:08 PM
TheCompleteGuitarist,Feb 11 2007
07:06 PM
Are you suggesting that in 04 Jenson was BETTER than Alonso and Kimi. That's the best yet.

For example

Well for one I was not suggesting that at all, and for two you were implying that I was talking rubbish.
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dcoulthard19
Chief Engineer
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Quote:
 
This isnt a critisism because at indy 2004 Button retired but on that day the BAR was the fastest car on the track, even Jenson says it on the 04 dvd


BAR were fastest on that day and if it wasn't for poor tactics Sato could have won that day, maybe Jenson could have if he had stayed in the race, who knows, can't remember if he was in a good position when he retired.
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The Saint
Unregistered

Red Andy,Feb 11 2007
07:19 PM
dcoulthard19,Feb 11 2007
07:13 PM
I think in 2004 the only race he should have definitely won was Monza, I said something similar to this earlier in the thread.

I would agree with that, although I would say it was fairly unforgivable that he didn't win it; he should have known that once Barrichello had switched to dries he would be unstoppable, and I think that if he had pushed harder to begin with he could have kept the Ferraris behind him. I think he only has himself to blame for losing that one.

But the Ferrari was in a class of it's own....to push harder would have been to push the Honda beyond its limits.

If you are driving down the road in your Nissan Micra and someone blasts past you in a Beemer......I dont car how hard you push, you are not going to catch that Beemer.

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Monty
Chief Engineer
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dcoulthard19,Feb 11 2007
07:28 PM
Quote:
 
This isnt a critisism because at indy 2004 Button retired but on that day the BAR was the fastest car on the track, even Jenson says it on the 04 dvd


BAR were fastest on that day and if it wasn't for poor tactics Sato could have won that day, maybe Jenson could have if he had stayed in the race, who knows, can't remember if he was in a good position when he retired.

he was behind Sato in second but hadnt pitted during the safety car period which cost the team. On that day though they had a car to win <yikes>
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dcoulthard19
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Quote:
 
he was behind Sato in second but hadnt pitted during the safety car period which cost the team


ah right, so basically 3rd is the best he could have got.
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Monty
Chief Engineer
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Red Andy,Feb 11 2007
07:19 PM
he should have known that once Barrichello had switched to dries he would be unstoppable, and I think that if he had pushed harder to begin with he could have kept the Ferraris behind him. I think he only has himself to blame for losing that one.

After he jumped Alonso in the first round of stops his pace went off and was quite happy to just sit ahead of Alonso which in the end was the wrong decision as the ferrari caught him at 1-2 seconds a lap, if he had pushed earlier on he might have won
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Monty
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dcoulthard19,Feb 11 2007
07:31 PM
Quote:
 
he was behind Sato in second but hadnt pitted during the safety car period which cost the team


ah right, so basically 3rd is the best he could have got.

pretty much but before the safety car they were about the same pace as the Ferraris, so with some luck it might have worked out for them.
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craggle78
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The Saint,Feb 10 2007
06:43 PM
Well there is a definate "Anyone but England" attitude from north of the border.

Tut tut tut Mr Saint..................

To bring somekind of English/Scottish hatred into the debate, especially when its a complete lot of nonsense. I'm no fan of Button not because he is English (I was one of Nige's and Damon's biggest supporters and will be watching Lewis with GREAT interest) I don't like Button because he's not exciting to watch, never makes me think "WOW", never inspires me etc etc etc etc..............He is just a "GOOD" F1 driver, nobody in the world (I'm pretty sure!) has ever thought "My word that Button guy is an out-standing talent" mainly because he ain't no out-standing talent. Alonso and Kimi get that EVERY second week.....why???? because they have out-standing talents!

As for the Button dominated Rubens more than Michael.........don't make me laugh, Michael has more talent in the hairs of his b0ll0chs than Jenson will EVER have. Michael didn't need to dominate as he never felt intimidated and under threat for the Brazilian, and NOT because he wasn't allowed to pass the "BOSS" but because Schumacher was in a different planet of talent. Oh of course there where MANY races Rubens was out performing Schumacher.....oh wait do you mean MANY means "Pretty much never"

At the end of the day, Button as I said has had 7 years in F1 all in an OK or good car and has never looked anything except "good" or at best on the odd occasion "very good", but not even close to looking GREAT! Something Kimi, Alonso, Montoya, Michael, even Trulli have......and I'm sure Kubica, Lewis and Kova will.........................
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wickedwitch
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flood1,Feb 11 2007
07:21 PM
As a newcomer, I have found this board and this thread interesting, and I have found the banter to be predictable. My debate judge said that when losing the argument, one should never attack the opponent and the opponent should never counter attack.


Quite right. This has now mutated into "netiquette" of "attack the post, not the poster" and I'd just like to interrupt this thread to remind people of that.

This is a fairly light hearted debate, which I am reading with great amusement and I'd be obliged if it could stay that way as I have no intention of doing any Admin work in the foreseeable future (unless you force me to start removing posts which are an obvious attack on someONE rather than someTHING). <admin>

Carry on. <whistle>
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Monty
Chief Engineer
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Ok, its all gone a bit quiet anyway.


By the way i totally agree with Craggles points, especially the MANY times that RB beat Shumi bit has a right to be destroyed. I might have accepted it if Saint had given me some examples but the fact is while at ferrari Shumacher was ALWAYS superior and Barrichello was nothing more than a dependable no.2, he didnt have the speed to trouble Michael and the very rare occasions in which there was team orders it evened itself out. When they were teamed together Shumi won 50 odd times to Barrichellos 9 thats just obliteration and add to this the fact that Shumi won 5 world championships, despite having by far the best car in 3 of his seasons at ferrari he NEVER troubled Shumacher going for the title. Like last year with Massa or even more so the brilliant ferrari cars made RB look a helluva alot better than he really was/is.
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Red Andy
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The Saint,Feb 11 2007
07:29 PM
But the Ferrari was in a class of it's own....to push harder would have been to push the Honda beyond its limits.

If you are driving down the road in your Nissan Micra and someone blasts past you in a Beemer......I dont car how hard you push, you are not going to catch that Beemer.

The point is that Button should have pushed consistently - in that case he probably could still have won without pushing the BAR beyond its limits. Once he realised the Ferraris were bearing down on him, however, it was too late - then you would be right, he would have gone beyond the limitations of the car. But the lead he had at one point in the race should have been enough to give him the lead until the finish, had he pushed hard enough. Instead he chose to go to sleep.
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The Saint
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Quote:
 
To bring somekind of English/Scottish hatred into the debate, especially when its a complete lot of nonsense

Craggle


One of the reasons I like you is because you have never showed any signs of this.

In order to avoid a digression, I will just leave it at that.

You say nobody in the world saw Button as an outstanding talent....but it seems the guys at Honda must be 'nobody in the world'

In the years that Ribena was at Ferrari his scored 16 poles.....which suggests to me he was faster than Schu that many times....which is does not mean 'pretty much never'. He had to cede position to the boss on many occasions, but because of team orders, how often he was better in a race than the boss, we will never know.

I have never seen a human testicle drive a car.....when they design a car that can be driven by one let me know.....but the controls would have to be awful close together!
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