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The DC202/SAINT Button is great/crap thread; Beware of mud slinging!
Topic Started: Feb 9 2007, 09:39 PM (1,681 Views)
dcoulthard19
Chief Engineer
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Quote:
 
I stand by my comment that Button should have won in 2004



I think Button should have won the Italian GP in 2004, he approached that race all wrong, I don't think he or any of us expected that huge Ferrari comeback and that caught him out, although if he had pushed harder at the right moments is it possible that the Ferraris would have still caught up later anyway? may have been a close call methinks

The other one he could of won was germany 2004 but engine failure let him down(in quali) and possibly China is an arguable one, I think the Ferrari was much faster than anyone that weekend and Barrichello should have won by a furthur distance, if MS had been on pole that weekend instead at the back he would have walked the race.

He almost won Monaco but just couldn't quite get past trulli, Renault was the faster car that weekend, Trulli's pace just slowed down as usual near the end of the GP, Button almost managed it but no cigar.
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Monty
Chief Engineer
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Red Andy,Feb 11 2007
12:22 PM
The Saint,Feb 11 2007
11:56 AM
Button is a quality driver who resoundingly beat the so-called top 2 drivers in 2004 when he had comparable equipment.

Comparable equipment? A McLaren that spent most of its time parked at the side of the track - and when it was moving, it wasn't going very fast until the last couple of races?

The Renault was on-and-off in terms of performance in 2004, whereas the BAR was consistently the second-best car. On those occasions where the Renault was good (e.g. France), Alonso was usually ahead of Button, but other times (e.g. Monza) he was not.

At Monza Alonso was actually right up behind when he retired, but yea the only track that renault really could have won on was monaco and they did it and would have had a 1-2 if not for Ralfs stupidity. The 2004 renault was a poor machine thats why the team scrapped it concepts at the end of the season.

To say the Mclaren mp4-19 was comparable to the Bar is a joke, the macca was a piece of shit and was atleast a second a lap off te pace of th bar honda. When mclaren did improve it Raikkonen immediately took pole at silverstone and almost won the race, a couple of rounds later he won a race. The 2004 BAR was better than three of the teams that won races yet they didnt manage it
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The Saint
Unregistered

Ok much to answer…

Quote:
 
Yeah we must have heard you say that about 10 times...zzzzzz...


A little unfriendly don’t you think SAFC? Maybe a smiley to clarify your intentions?

Quote:
 
Resoundingly beat the top 2 drivers in 2004? (followed by a WFT smilie)


Ok here we go….

Buttons results in 2004

6,3,3,2,8,2,3,3,nr,5,4,2,5,nr,3,2,3,nr

Alonso’s results in 2004

3,7,6,4,4,nr,5,nr,nr,2,10,3,3,nr,nr,4,5,4

Raikkonens results in 2004

Nr,nr,nr,8,11,nr,nr,5,6,7,2,nr,nr,1,nr,3,6,2

(and before you comment about all of Raikkonens NR’s let me point out that Montoya managed to get the car to the finish a lot more times – so much for the unreliable McLaren theory there)

So yes, looking at those figures, Button trounced Alonso and Raikkoen – 26 points more than Alonso and 40 points more than super Kim.

Quote:
 
can you list these "MANY" races?


I could yes, but I am not going to, as it would take some time to sort out, and it is a pointless effort because I cannot argue against prejudice.

Quote:
 
Then Rob made an invalid point because Shumi was always superior to Rubinho comfortably more so than Button. I feel you are trying to say Jenson Button is better than Michael Schumacher


No, Rob made a VERY valid point, you say he didn’t but don’t provide your reasons why. And the Button being beter that Schu comment is just silliness on your behalf in oreder to attempt to rubbish my valid argument.

Quote:
 
Comparable equipment? A McLaren that spent most of its time parked at the side of the track - and when it was moving, it wasn't going very fast until the last couple of races?


But Montoya managed to get it to the finish line, and you blame the car for going slow and congratulate the driver when it goes fast? Yes indeed mr red, the Honda was comparable to both the Renault and the McLAren.

Quote:
 
The Renault was on-and-off in terms of performance in 2004, whereas the BAR was consistently the second-best car. On those occasions where the Renault was good (e.g. France), Alonso was usually ahead of Button, but other times (e.g. Monza) he was not.


The BAR was the second best because of the package, Button being an important part of that. Of the 12 races in which Alonso and Button finished in 04, the score was 8-4 to Button. I am not sure of your point here, when the Renault was good Alonso finshed ahead of Button and when it was not he finished behind him? Is that not what I have been saying all along?

Quote:
 
I stand by my comment that Button should have won in 2004. He had a better car than Williams, Renault and Mclaren, who all managed to win a race. Thats where Button falls short. I don't see him as someone that can extract the maximum from a car. Whereas Alonso has shown, especially in the latter half of 2006, that he is just as good as Schumacher is/was at doing that.


Ahhh but your forget that in 2 of the 3 races in which the Ferrari did not win, Button had DNF’s. At Belguin where Kimi won, he had a tire blow out, Truli won at Monaco (but only becuase of the INFAMOUS pace car accident) in the Renault with Button coming second – with Jarno making it imposible for Button to get passed him (not unusual there (remember Mansell/Senna?)) and when JPM won at Brazil, Buttons car broke down. So you see, your ‘should have won in 04’ theory falls flat. It was Ferraris dominance that stopped Button wining a race that year.

And as for what Alonso showed in the later half of 2006…….he showed lots of cracks under pressure.

Back you you(s)
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The Saint
Unregistered

Quote:
 
To say the Mclaren mp4-19 was comparable to the Bar is a joke, the macca was a piece of shit and was atleast a second a lap off te pace of th bar honda. When mclaren did improve it Raikkonen immediately took pole at silverstone and almost won the race, a couple of rounds later he won a race. The 2004 BAR was better than three of the teams that won races yet they didnt manage it


No joke, it was a comparable car.

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Monty
Chief Engineer
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The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:32 PM
Quote:
 
To say the Mclaren mp4-19 was comparable to the Bar is a joke, the macca was a piece of shit and was atleast a second a lap off te pace of th bar honda. When mclaren did improve it Raikkonen immediately took pole at silverstone and almost won the race, a couple of rounds later he won a race. The 2004 BAR was better than three of the teams that won races yet they didnt manage it


No joke, it was a comparable car.

roflmao i hope your joking or maybe you just didnt watch F1 that season? the mclaren in 2004 was an awful car early in the season had about the same performance as the Sauber on the other hand the BAR was a brilliant car it would have to be to see Sato on the podium.
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The Saint
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Like I say 202, I find prejudice a difficult one to argue against.

Montoya got managed to get some good results out of the McLaren as did Raikkonen. Ahh but thats because they have the 'x' factor huh?
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Monty
Chief Engineer
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The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:29 PM


Ok here we go….

Buttons results in 2004

6,3,3,2,8,2,3,3,nr,5,4,2,5,nr,3,2,3,nr

Alonso’s results in 2004

3,7,6,4,4,nr,5,nr,nr,2,10,3,3,nr,nr,4,5,4

Raikkonens results in 2004

Nr,nr,nr,8,11,nr,nr,5,6,7,2,nr,nr,1,nr,3,6,2


You have completely missed the point here,the BAR was a much better car than both and in Mclarens case a second quicker, plus both of he drivers had more retirements and Kimi retired about the same amount as he finished so these facts say nothing to me.

Its like looking at the 2005 season

Alonso 133 points

Raikkonen-112 points

Button-36 points

If 2004 they were in comparable cars then they were also in comparable cars in 2005. <cool>
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Monty
Chief Engineer
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The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:43 PM
Like I say 202, I find prejudice a difficult one to argue against.

Montoya got managed to get some good results out of the McLaren as did Raikkonen. Ahh but thats because they have the 'x' factor huh?

What the hell are you on about Montoya only started driving for Mclaren in 2005 <doh>

DC only scored just over half the points of raikkonen is 2004.
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The Saint
Unregistered

And now your just being silly DC202

Have you not forgottent that BAR were caught cheating in 05?

A losing gambit from you I am afraid.
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Monty
Chief Engineer
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The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:45 PM
And now your just being silly DC202

Have you not forgottent that BAR were caught cheating in 05?

A losing gambit from you I am afraid.

Believe me mate your previous points are just foolish, its seems you are on the bac foot. <cool>
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The Saint
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DavidColthard202,Feb 11 2007
01:45 PM
The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:43 PM
Like I say 202, I find prejudice a difficult one to argue against.

Montoya got managed to get some good results out of the McLaren as did Raikkonen. Ahh but thats because they have the 'x' factor huh?

What the hell are you on about Montoya only started driving for Mclaren in 2005 <doh>

DC only scored just over half the points of raikkonen is 2004.

Aye you have me over a barrel there,

I was Looking at stats tables and had my drivers mixed up.

I am going to remain silent about Coulthard as we have many Scottish posters here.






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The Saint
Unregistered

DavidColthard202,Feb 11 2007
01:46 PM
The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:45 PM
And now your just being silly DC202

Have you not forgottent that BAR were caught cheating in 05?

A losing gambit from you I am afraid.

Believe me mate your previous points are just foolish, its seems you are on the bac foot. <cool>

and tell me why?

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Monty
Chief Engineer
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The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:49 PM
DavidColthard202,Feb 11 2007
01:45 PM
The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:43 PM
Like I say 202, I find prejudice a difficult one to argue against.

Montoya got managed to get some good results out of the McLaren as did Raikkonen. Ahh but thats because they have the 'x' factor huh?

What the hell are you on about Montoya only started driving for Mclaren in 2005 <doh>

DC only scored just over half the points of raikkonen is 2004.

Aye you have me over a barrel there,

I was Looking at stats tables and had my drivers mixed up.

I am going to remain silent about Coulthard as we have many Scottish posters here.

Ok, but DC got nothing like the results Kimi got out of the mp4-19 as i said he scored 45 points to DCs 24.
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The Saint
Unregistered

I cannot make comments on that without starting another argument about the merits of DC.

Sufice to say that it is no big licks to score more points that David.

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Monty
Chief Engineer
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The Saint,Feb 11 2007
01:53 PM
I cannot make comments on that without starting another argument about the merits of DC.

Sufice to say that it is no big licks to score more points that David.

yup <thumbs>

But take a look the thread name.
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