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| The DC202/SAINT Button is great/crap thread; Beware of mud slinging! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 9 2007, 09:39 PM (1,684 Views) | |
| Rob | Feb 9 2007, 10:52 PM Post #16 |
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Here it is! Watch at 4:10 into the video, the back view off Shumi's car. Alosno goes wide and damn near stuffs it. Without the grasscrete his day would have been over. |
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| Monty | Feb 9 2007, 10:57 PM Post #17 |
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Chief Engineer
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Exactly Craggle, also you dont just become a top driver over night and now that Shumi has left many rate him(Button) in the top 3. I dont know what that says about the quality of drivers but i would rate him in the top 6 or 7 but not in the top 3 ie the elite of f1 drivers. What sets Alonso apart from Button and others is that in his first season you could see his real killer instinct in only his second race for renault he took pole he then fought MS for victory in his homeland in a inferior car. Later in the season of course Alonso took his first win on the only track that he had the oppurtunity to win on, funnily enough this was in Hungary and Jense despite never having a car clearly capable of winning early in his career wasnt able to take advantage of half chances like Alonso could/can. Button takes 7 seasons to win and despite never having the best car he hasnt displayed the cutting edge of Alonso, like as i mentioned earlier imola 2005 when the difference between the two was clear to see the race craft of Alonso that kept shumi back and the fact he backed off his pace to stop them catching traffic and therefore giving shumi a chance to overtake was brilliant where as JB despite being quick at times was overwhelmed by Michaels pressure and then lost the place lapping traffic. |
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| Monty | Feb 9 2007, 11:05 PM Post #18 |
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Chief Engineer
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Yup you are right Rob i remember it, but what are you trying to prove? that Alonso makes mistakes? he was lucky but he got the break and still finished 2nd. |
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| Rob | Feb 9 2007, 11:23 PM Post #19 |
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Yeah pretty much. More specifically Button has not been the only one to gaff when going one on one with Shumi (also Kimi Canada 06 Hill at Hokenheim in 95). I'm not taking sides in this, I don't think Button is the best driver in F1, I will say he is in consideration for the top 3, but he's not close to the top 2. However, Button handed Rubens his ass last year, something we saw Shumi do time and time again. Just for fun I did the percentages, Button beat Rubens by more percentage wise than Shumi did in 4 of the 6 years he and Rubens were at Ferrari together. That says enough for me. Jenson is damn good. Having said that I don't think Button has the killer instinct to be an all time great. That's just my opinion, but if you look at the starting grid, guys like Alonso, Shumi, and Kimi just have that look like they are daring you to try to beat them. Button simply doesn't have that look. I'm not saying he won't be a WDC, but he won't be a Mansell, Stewart, or Lauda. Maybe an Alan Jones or Denny Hulme. |
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| fordprefect | Feb 10 2007, 12:07 AM Post #20 |
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Just Married
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Thanks for that Rob - hadn't realised Jense had done that well against Rubes last season. <thumbs> As you can probably tell from my alter-ego Mrs JB (Jenson's mum) I do think Jense is a great F1 driver - not the best and he's probably never gonna be the best, but I don't think he deserves all the flack he gets on here and other message boards - esp by the British fans. The British press (and bloody James Allen) have built him up soooo much that people have got fed up of hearing how great he is supposed to be
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| Norbert | Feb 10 2007, 12:11 AM Post #21 |
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Here's mine: unsubstantiated, yet to be backed up, and totally and utterly down to luck. Granted, you may make your own luck, but if the opposition is no longer running, you haven't so much beaten them as outlasted them. Mr B hasn't ever looked like winning anything else as yet, and given his form in 2005 with tons of podiums and suchlike, 2006 was rather pants...... 2007? Who knows, maybe he'll prove me wrong! There again, maybe not. Good luck to the bloke, he is English after all, but I think he's a bit of a waster.... A Coulthard in the making, but DC is far more modest! |
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| Red Andy | Feb 10 2007, 12:59 PM Post #22 |
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Jenson is always good for a spirited debate on a message board! Here's my two cents: I have yet to be impressed by Jenson Button. I have never watched a race where I thought "Wow, Button drove brilliantly today." On occasions he's been good, on rarer occasions he's been very good (Germany 04 springs to mind immediately), but I don't believe he's ever had what I would consider an excellent race. I would say an excellent race was one where he outdrove his machinery (as we have seen Raikkonen and Alonso, for example, do a number of times). Alternatively, he could drive an excellent race by being consistently on the limit throughout the race, but not so much as to throw it away. Button I think suffers from "Fisichella syndrome," i.e. if it isn't going his way, he goes to sleep in the second half of the race. Sometimes he even goes to sleep if it is going his way (Monza 04 for example). This is demonstrated by occasional flashes of brilliance in some races, while in others he seems off the boil. Another point we can make about Button is the way he acts in the media. This is probably more to do with ITV's fascination with him rather than the way he actually is, but he always comes across as overly confident bordering on arrogance. Furthermore, whenever something goes wrong, there is always an excuse (e.g. clutch in Malaysia 06, tyres not warming up properly in Australia 06), and he will never admit to his own shortcomings (see Montreal 05 where he stuffed it into the wall while being tailed by Michael Schumacher.) That said, he is an excellent team player (he will always talk about "we" when referring to his performances, whether good or bad), which is fairly uncommon amongst F1 drivers. There are, however, positive sides to Jenson as well. As I have mentioned, he is a talented racer and, when things go right for him, he is able to extract the best possible outcomes from them (e.g. Hungary 06). But the rest of the time, his head seems to be elsewhere. I think the ups and downs of every racing season mean that he is unlikely ever to mount a serious challenge for a world championship. Then again, I could be completely wrong. |
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| The Saint | Feb 10 2007, 02:37 PM Post #23 |
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A lot of this sounds like the emporers new cloths. Mr Norbert, you say that Button did not beat the opposition, rather they broke down, so how do you aacount for him being in front of them (with the expetion of Raikkonen who he was catching fast) when they broke down? I have lost my way in this thread, darn interlopers!
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Feb 10 2007, 03:57 PM Post #24 |
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Driver
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What about China 06 and last season didn't we see him atleast twice fight back from 14th to a very decent position . . . . one of them being first. Creditable by far. I haven't seen any JB hype this season. It's all Hamilton. Poor guy he's in for it next year if he doesn't perform. Could the real Nico Rosberg please stand up please stand up please stand up . . . . . anyone know what I am saying or have you forgotten how much YOU all hyped him up? |
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| The Saint | Feb 10 2007, 05:08 PM Post #25 |
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Hey Geetar man, a big welcome to the forum...nice to see another one of the old BBC fellows joining us. Pull up a chair, you are most welcome. I never hyped Nico up, i am pretty reserved when it comes to bestowing accolades to newbbies! |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Feb 10 2007, 06:18 PM Post #26 |
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Webber said it himself, "where is Nico now." I think JB is difficult to categorize. You have the view of the fans who either love him or hate him and then there is the industry itself and his relative statistics. He is respected and rated by those in the know and has ultimate belief from his team. Stats prove that he wasted RB last season by far more than MS ever did and that he is maturing as a racer all the time. I've heard it said that JB was rubbish last season except for the last 7 races. 7 races is almost half the season and in that half he was actually the highest scoring most consistent and one of the most entertaining drivers pulling off some awesome performances including a win. At the beginning of the season everyone was saying MS was out to pasture but by the end of the season he was still the best. Logic suggests that the team sorted out problems with the car. The car adds a lot to the drivers performance and if you can't see this then try taking off the rose tinted spectacles for a moment. Wether he will or not I don't know and it doesn't matter that much, BUT he has as good a chance as everyone else talent wise under equal circumstances. I think it's stupid to ignore him. I'd prefer to watch Jenson struggle his way to the top than Kimi jump into the best car and fail. As it is people are giving Kimi slack for struggling next season as he adapts to a new team and IF he doesn't win well then never mind. Kimi has now driven for two of the top teams tho' yet to complete his first season at Ferrari and yet JB has never been in a potentially (consistent) race winning car yet it seems since he's been with the team it's done nothing but move forward. In my opinion if Kimi fails this season, or even if he struggles then he deserves to be written off. |
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| Monty | Feb 10 2007, 06:31 PM Post #27 |
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Ah is this the guy who called me racis because i dont like Jenson Button. roflmao Welcome |
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| TheCompleteGuitarist | Feb 10 2007, 06:43 PM Post #28 |
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My issues with racism have nothing to do with JB. References to specific nationalistic behaviour in an attempt to belittle them is. Such as 'The problem with the English/British is......' as if to suggest that all British/English act and think in the same way. Which is not true. I was born in Cheshire and lived in the NW of England for 40 years yet think little of myself as an Englishman. I am a human being with a reasonable ability to make decision independent of those that surround me. One of the reasons I love F1 is because it crosses borders. It's great to see so many cultures represented. People with different lives, different experiences so that we can all grow and learn. If someone wants to put up a fence and defend their patch of dirt then I pity that person. We need a world where borders can be crossed and ignorance unvieled. Borders are only ereceted by those who think they have something to fear. Fear leads to ignorance and ignites hostility. I presume you're referring to this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F6541021?thre...skip=60&show=20 and this: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "english people hype up all their sportmen and they are in an unbiased view, probably the worst in the world," ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The British tendancy to overhype someone and to defend them is equalled only by the British tendancy to destroy their own sportsmen, to me it seems that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't!!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stereotyping national identity I think, yet I don't share any of the characteristics described here. |
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| The Saint | Feb 10 2007, 06:43 PM Post #29 |
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Well there is a definate "Anyone but England" attitude from north of the border. |
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| Monty | Feb 10 2007, 06:45 PM Post #30 |
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Erm, not true MS consistently would beat Barrichello 15-1/16-1 (qualifying) in some of their seasons plus RB was getting used to a new team last season should be a much better barometer on how the two compare, RB is far better than his shit performances last year showed i feel. "Stats prove that he wasted RB last season by far more than MS ever " Dont know where you get these stats from F1planet , at no point in Barrichellos 6 years with ferrari was he genuinely quicker than Shumi, plus last season he seemed to get most of the bad luck which made his points tally look so poor, in qualifyng atleast they were very close in fact i believe RB had the best of it.Where has all this shit came from that Raikkonen will fail next season, if the cars good i have little doubt he will be the champ, he is capable of pushing cars beyond their limit like in 2003 where he almost won the championships in a year old car. I dont understand why you say he deserves to be written off because of his years at mclaren only once did he have a car capable of regular victories but the cars rubbish reliability and the brilliance of Alonso stopped him from winning the championship, other than that macca havent really been a "top team". |
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7:21 PM Jul 11