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| Indy 2005; The REAL reason the tyres failed? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 25 2007, 10:37 PM (840 Views) | |
| theghostofnuvolari | Feb 28 2007, 08:18 PM Post #46 |
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so you saying that bridgestone were morally in the wrong, while acknowledging that it is standard business practice, however distateful, to maintain a competitive advantage. oh, and to me tyres are tyres, and this is just a debate. and if george bush was ceo of bridgestone he'd have made potenza's free to the rich, and borrowed a trillion dollars to try and take over goodyear because he was unhappy with the threat of michelin in f1.
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| The Saint | Feb 28 2007, 08:39 PM Post #47 |
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I am saying Bridgestone were aware of the excessive tyre wear due to an extremely abrasive track surface. They also knew of the safety implications, but ignored those to obtain a competitive edge. I am saying that was wrong, but also that I am not so naïve to think that this is an isolated case of putting gain before what is morally right. This thread has inspired me into writing an article about the whole thing on my new website! |
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| Rob | Feb 28 2007, 08:55 PM Post #48 |
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I have never disputed that the Stones had more data on Indy than Michelin, but it is a logical conclusion that Michelin could have obtained more information than what they did by performing a simple tire drag test. You may choose not to believe me, but I do know this for an absolute fact, and I have done so before (not at Indy but on different paved surfaces). Knowing the angle of turn 13 and the speed and weight of the cars as they are going through, it is a pretty easy to calculate the forces that the tire sidewall would need to withstand. Now I know you have said that if F1 could be run in a lab there wouldn't be a need for testing (or something similar) but tire testing is to get them maximum out of the tires, not to get information on how to keep it from blowing up after 10 laps stresses on the car and tires are predictable values that can be determined from collected information Michelin but I doubt they did. If tire loads and thresholds would not be determined outside of actual track time should be hearing about a LOT of tire failures during testing, but do we? When it comes right down to it no one here knows what if any warnings/advise Bridgestone gave Michelin. It is just as plausible that Michelin was given said advice and told B'stone to stuff it. Like I said there is to much conjecture in your theory for me to accept it as fact. Bridgestone DID have more testing data at Indy than Michelin is a fact that I will not dispute. Bridgestone not sharing potentially fatal information with Michelin and thus ruining the 05 USGP is opinion and speculation. By the way, did you take into account the legal liabilities Bridgestone could face if they knowingly with held information that lead to the injury of a participant of the USGP, if some one got injured the law suit could be tens of millions. I wonder why Ralf never sued.... |
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| The Saint | Feb 28 2007, 09:06 PM Post #49 |
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I think this is a fair point you make Rob, but the only real data is obtained by actual testing and racing on a surface. You seem to think I am attempting to make Michelin blameless for 2005, but I am not. My point has been made several times up to where I am also getting bored with this thread. My point is what Bridgestone withheld.
Trust me when I tell you that had Michelin known the extent of the tyre wear, they would have arrived with a harder compound. I’m almost certain that what data Bridgestone did have, they kept to themselves….at the expense of driver safety. Bri
Of course its speculation, but good speculation based on some very pertinent facts.
I am sure Bridgestone knew of the legal ramifications and also the power of plausible deniability. But you certainly make a good argument Rob, I’ll send you the link for the story when I publish it, maybe you can write a counter-argument addendum! |
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| John | Feb 28 2007, 09:27 PM Post #50 |
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Team Boss
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Not a problem mate... <thumbs> as a final point..... If I thought B'stone withheld vital data knowing the Michelin's would fail... then yes I too would hold B'stone to blame.... It's just that I truly don't see it... I know what you are saying about the Indy500 data... I do accept they will have some advantage... but ultimately I believe it was as much Michelin dropping the ball... they had enough time from when the problem became apparent to ship over their safest compound to supply their teams.... this would have meant handing the win to Ferrari... but that happened anyway Instead I believe they tried to bluff the IMS and the FIA into cancelling the race... no points to anyone... FIA called their bluff.... they held their hands up and said they could not guarentee their tyres... They where deemed to be the cause... by the IMS, FIA and The majority of the fans. |
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| Rob | Feb 28 2007, 09:37 PM Post #51 |
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So we are agreed that is is speculation, now we are just discussing the quality of it.
I wonder if I can get Dashed to pay me another $1000.
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| The Saint | Feb 28 2007, 09:40 PM Post #52 |
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I’m pretty sure my version of things is the correct one Rob, Its speculation to think that, if a blind man crosses an interstate at rush hour, he will get hit by something..... And to John, want to profile BMW for my new F1 website? |
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| John | Feb 28 2007, 09:50 PM Post #53 |
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Wow......... I'd be delighted to offer a contribution.... I'd have to work on the languge to ensure it was unbiased and a true account... not just a ode to bmw <thumbs>
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| The Saint | Feb 28 2007, 10:04 PM Post #54 |
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thats why i never asked you to do Schumacher! roflmao But I cant think of a more knowledgeable BMW dude! |
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| John | Feb 28 2007, 10:32 PM Post #55 |
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... and to my knowledge MS has never owned a BMW....
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| JJB-Ferrari | Mar 1 2007, 10:44 AM Post #56 |
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erm, just a small point but when looking at a companies liablility for uncompetitive behavour or breach of antitrust, quite often you are looking at positions of dominance within a market place. As there were only two companies supplying tyres and Michelin were actually supplying more tyres than Bridgestone I don't think it would be possible to use this as a legal basis for suing a company. If Michelin were to sue Bridgestone on this basis Bridgestone would just argue that Michelin have the same opportunities to analyse the track and that they did nothing to prevent them from doing so. Furthermore, Michelin should not expect their only rival within the sport to turn around and say "oh the track looks abrasive, maybe we should consider harder tyres" as this is stating something that doesn't need a great deal of expertise and a company in the position of Michelin ought reasonably have known that. Just one last point, if individuals (ie Ralf) had sought damages from Bridgestone it would have been in Tort and there is no duty to help people whatsoever. If fact, so many people have been sued for trying to help people it would be wise to cross to the other side of the street and ignor the problem. If this is what Bridgestone did it is NOT moral but was probably the sensible thing to do. What a sad world we live in now.
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| John | Mar 1 2007, 10:59 AM Post #57 |
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It may well be 'Karma' or such like... but I bought four new road tyres for my wife's Renault Scenic at the end of January... yesterday she informed me she heard a hissing sound when she returned for the Gym... upon inspection when I got home... she had kerbed the wheel and split the tyre sidewall.... the tyres where..... Michelin's Oh the irony....
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not just a ode to bmw <thumbs>
12:31 AM Jul 11