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WTF on Christianity; Somebody tell sQuirt to come read.....
Topic Started: Jul 9 2018, 05:26 AM (616 Views)
Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
They need to stop calling themselves Christians and stop calling it a church and call it what it is - a social club.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 06:29 AM
Don't make excuses for them, Jon. You could literally FEEL the joy every damned on of them had at the prospect of white christians in decline.
That's solid Truth. :thumb:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 06:38 AM
They need to stop calling themselves Christians and stop calling it a church and call it what it is - a social club.
As opposed to this place which is an anti-social club.

Incidentally, I've been searching the internet, and there are EVEN WORSE FORUMS OUT THERE THAN WTF!!!!! Hard to believe, I know, but it's true. I won't link to them because I don't want to give them publicity.

We should have a forum of the week award where guys who clearly have nothing to do all day link to discussions amongst people they despise and we can talk about them and feel better about ourselves.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop
Jolly
Jul 9 2018, 07:15 AM
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 06:29 AM
Don't make excuses for them, Jon. You could literally FEEL the joy every damned on of them had at the prospect of white christians in decline.
That's solid Truth. :thumb:

That's right, it is no surprise, those are well known posters.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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xenon
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Senior Carp
How does the narrative line up with everyone's personal, anecdotal experience?

I grew up going to Sikh temples with large congregation growth, but it was hard to disentangle the effects of attendence and growth of the base through immigration.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 06:00 AM
Or you can read it here... Evangelical Christianity is not just growing in the US, it's growing globally:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

Quote:
 
Evangelicalism, a major part of popular Protestantism, is among the most dynamic religious movements in the contemporary world.[5] While evangelicalism is on the rise globally, developing countries have particularly embraced it; it is the fastest growing portion of Christianity.


Why don’t you show us the actual data you found? Like: on p. XX of this document there’s a graph which shows that Evangelicals have grown by 20% per year in the last 10 years. I still have no idea, which Pew report you refer to, and given that these are often big documents, a page number would be helpful.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Why don't you look it up yourself if you aren't willing to accept the link I gave you already, and then discuss the issue instead of continuing with your diversionary tactics?

Or do you not know what the actual issue is that's being discussed?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 08:23 AM
Why don't you look it up yourself if you aren't willing to accept the link I gave you already, and then discuss the issue instead of continuing with your diversionary tactics?

Or do you not know what the actual issue is that's being discussed?
I can't look it up. You gave a quote from Wikipedia that contains no reference to any actual data. You talk about some Pew report, but can't be bothered to link to that report. There's one report discussed in the Wikipedia page, this one, but that report is not about the development of the sizes of different Christian denominations. Maybe there's something in the report that I'm missing - its 130 pages - but you don't seem to be willing to say on which data you base your claim.

I'm not diverting anything. I want to know whether there's data to back up your claim. If there's none, then there's no point in discussing further. And I'm actually interested in the answer; I have no opinion on whether those numbers are growing or shrinking for Evangelicals simply because I don't know. If possible, I like to base my opinions on facts.

You seem to be more interested in turning the attention to the attitude of WTF members towards Christianity, but I find that part of the discussion to be unlikely to yield any new insights into anything, beyond the entirely predictable stuff, hence I'd like to focus on what I considered to be the potentially most interesting part of your post.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I do know there's a lot more England football fans this week than there was a year ago.

Maybe that's similar to the evangelical explosion - #Godscominghome!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Klaus, this isn't a math problem to be solved. All that needs to be shown is that evangelical Christianity is not in decline, but is in fact growing. How much is beside the point. I've shown that. Next, all that needs to be shown is that the actual decline is occurring among the denominations that have embraced their perversion. I've done that.

YES Klaus, I'm turning the attention to the attitude of WTF members toward Christianity - that's the whole POINT. If you want to bury yourself in a math problem, fine. But stop derailing the discussion with it because it's got nothing to do with this.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Yeah what is that ‘coming home’ sh1t about anyway? The cup just visited there once, right? over half a century ago now.
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
John D'Oh
Jul 9 2018, 08:50 AM
I do know there's a lot more England football fans this week than there was a year ago.

Maybe that's similar to the evangelical explosion - #Godscominghome!
You remind me of an old native American story:

A wise man and a fool have the same mother.
It's so one can take care of the other.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Is this the one about the son of the squaw on the hippopotamus being equal to the son of the squaw on the other two hides?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Jul 9 2018, 08:42 AM
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 08:23 AM
Why don't you look it up yourself if you aren't willing to accept the link I gave you already, and then discuss the issue instead of continuing with your diversionary tactics?

Or do you not know what the actual issue is that's being discussed?
I can't look it up. You gave a quote from Wikipedia that contains no reference to any actual data. You talk about some Pew report, but can't be bothered to link to that report. There's one report discussed in the Wikipedia page, this one, but that report is not about the development of the sizes of different Christian denominations. Maybe there's something in the report that I'm missing - its 130 pages - but you don't seem to be willing to say on which data you base your claim.

I'm not diverting anything. I want to know whether there's data to back up your claim. If there's none, then there's no point in discussing further. And I'm actually interested in the answer; I have no opinion on whether those numbers are growing or shrinking for Evangelicals simply because I don't know. If possible, I like to base my opinions on facts.

You seem to be more interested in turning the attention to the attitude of WTF members towards Christianity, but I find that part of the discussion to be unlikely to yield any new insights into anything, beyond the entirely predictable stuff, hence I'd like to focus on what I considered to be the potentially most interesting part of your post.
Larry is not your google-mommy. He made his claim and provided a link. If you don't buy that, fine. Look it up yourself.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Quote:
 
YES Klaus, I'm turning the attention to the attitude of WTF members toward Christianity - that's the whole POINT.


Just in case somebody missed it.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
As for the WTF folks....It's interesting to drop in on them every blue moon, just to get a feel for the current vibe of folks on the Left. Most are pretty well educated, have good careers or jobs, and may even be well-adjusted, normal functioning adults, albeit with a Left- ward political bent.

And some need medicating.

But it does give one a view into what's happening in a "mainstream" liberal bunch of folks and not some bunch of absolute idiots like Dem Underground.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 08:56 AM
Klaus, this isn't a math problem to be solved. All that needs to be shown is that evangelical Christianity is not in decline, but is in fact growing. How much is beside the point. I've shown that.
Well, actually you haven't shown that. I'm not saying it's not true.

This has nothing to do with math. But it has a lot to do with presenting a coherent argument. I'm a bit annoyed that often when one scratches on a part of your arguments, it turns out there isn't much substance behind it.

Anyway, I won't stop you guys from enjoying some more WTF bashing.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Jul 9 2018, 11:01 AM
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 08:56 AM
Klaus, this isn't a math problem to be solved. All that needs to be shown is that evangelical Christianity is not in decline, but is in fact growing. How much is beside the point. I've shown that.
Well, actually you haven't shown that. I'm not saying it's not true.

This has nothing to do with math. But it has a lot to do with presenting a coherent argument. I'm a bit annoyed that often when one scratches on a part of your arguments, it turns out there isn't much substance behind it.

Anyway, I won't stop you guys from enjoying some more WTF bashing.
Took me 8 seconds to find this.

8 seconds.

May not be exactly what you're looking for, but it does show how much effort you are putting into your quest for Truth and Knowledge...

https://www.sociologicalscience.com/download/vol-4/november/SocSci_v4_686to700.pdf
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jul 9 2018, 11:34 AM
Klaus
Jul 9 2018, 11:01 AM
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 08:56 AM
Klaus, this isn't a math problem to be solved. All that needs to be shown is that evangelical Christianity is not in decline, but is in fact growing. How much is beside the point. I've shown that.
Well, actually you haven't shown that. I'm not saying it's not true.

This has nothing to do with math. But it has a lot to do with presenting a coherent argument. I'm a bit annoyed that often when one scratches on a part of your arguments, it turns out there isn't much substance behind it.

Anyway, I won't stop you guys from enjoying some more WTF bashing.
Took me 8 seconds to find this.

8 seconds.

May not be exactly what you're looking for, but it does show how much effort you are putting into your quest for Truth and Knowledge...

https://www.sociologicalscience.com/download/vol-4/november/SocSci_v4_686to700.pdf
Thanks. Maybe you are just better at googling than I am.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Jul 9 2018, 11:48 AM
Jolly
Jul 9 2018, 11:34 AM
Klaus
Jul 9 2018, 11:01 AM
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 08:56 AM
Klaus, this isn't a math problem to be solved. All that needs to be shown is that evangelical Christianity is not in decline, but is in fact growing. How much is beside the point. I've shown that.
Well, actually you haven't shown that. I'm not saying it's not true.

This has nothing to do with math. But it has a lot to do with presenting a coherent argument. I'm a bit annoyed that often when one scratches on a part of your arguments, it turns out there isn't much substance behind it.

Anyway, I won't stop you guys from enjoying some more WTF bashing.
Took me 8 seconds to find this.

8 seconds.

May not be exactly what you're looking for, but it does show how much effort you are putting into your quest for Truth and Knowledge...

https://www.sociologicalscience.com/download/vol-4/november/SocSci_v4_686to700.pdf
Thanks. Maybe you are just better at googling than I am.
You have got to be kidding...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Klaus
Jul 9 2018, 11:01 AM
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 08:56 AM
Klaus, this isn't a math problem to be solved. All that needs to be shown is that evangelical Christianity is not in decline, but is in fact growing. How much is beside the point. I've shown that.
Well, actually you haven't shown that. I'm not saying it's not true.

This has nothing to do with math. But it has a lot to do with presenting a coherent argument. I'm a bit annoyed that often when one scratches on a part of your arguments, it turns out there isn't much substance behind it.

Anyway, I won't stop you guys from enjoying some more WTF bashing.
Well, actually I have. Perhaps the problem here is your lack of ability to think. Because you see, the Wiki link I gave you states it quite clearly. The links to various Pew Research articles are given. As for your opinion that there's not much substance to my arguments, if you can't understand something a clear and straightforward as this, it's time you considered the fact that maybe the problem is you.

You haven't been honest in your posts in this thread from the start. Your first attempt to derail the topic was when you tried to draw attention away from the issue and make it about race. When that failed, you tried to make it a math problem, insisting that I give you exact percentages. So it's obvious to me that you have no interest in an honest discussion of the issue, you just want to be passive aggressive with me.

You should know better than to try that with me by now.theres nothing wrong with the substance of my posts on this issue. The problem is you talking out your ass.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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George K
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Finally
Larry
Jul 9 2018, 05:26 AM
Christianity is NOT in decline. According to Pew Research, it's growing. The mainline protestant churches are absolutely hemorrhaging members. Members are running for the exits of these churches as if they are on fire.
I really don't have a dog in this fight, being, at best, an agnostic. However, this study from Indiana University and Harvard comes to some interesting conclusions

https://www.sociologicalscience.com/download/vol-4/november/SocSci_v4_686to700.pdf
Quote:
 
Conclusion

Voas and Chaves (2016) showed that average religiousness is declining in the United States, similar to the secularization occurring in other countries, and concluded, therefore, that religion in America is not exceptional, not “declining in a distinctive way,” (p. 1524), and “not any sort of outlier” (p. 1550). We have demonstrated, however, that only moderate religion has declined and that the intensity of Amer- ican religion is persistent and exceptional. The decline of moderate religion is not, therefore, a pervasive secularization consistent with the secularization thesis. Instead, it appears to be a reaction of moderates against religion that has become too intense, too strict, and too politicized in the face of social change (Hout and Fischer 2002, 2014; Iannaccone 1994). Therefore, although religion can gain strength by distinguishing itself from society, it needs to adjust to social change or else risk becoming too distinctive and alienating moderates (Iannaccone 1994; Schnabel 2016).

We have shown that American religion is becoming increasingly exceptional in its intensity. Rather than religion as a whole declining and fading into irrelevance— as we would expect on the basis of the secularization thesis—the political backlash noted by Hout and Fischer (2002, 2014) appears to be emptying the more moderate categories of American religion. Yes, we could call this religious change a different type of secularization, but we could also, and perhaps more accurately, call it the polarization of religion in the United States. This pattern of moderates changing and an intransigent category persisting parallels other work on social change in the United States, such as Powell and colleagues’ (2010) research on same-sex marriage attitudes: they found that moderates frequently changed their perspective, but those most opposed to same-sex marriage were less likely to change. Likewise, as American religion has become increasingly politicized, moderates have been leaving it. But the most ardently and dogmatically religious persist and now make up a larger share of those who are religious. Even as those who attend religious services sometimes shift toward never attending, there is not a decline in those who attend more than weekly—therefore, clergy are increasingly preaching to the choir.

That American religion is not becoming irrelevant or any less intense has im- portant societal implications. For many social and political issues, there is only a modest distinction between the views of the moderately religious and the non- religious but a large distinction between intense religionists and everyone else (Schnabel and Sevell 2017). The persistent intensity of American religion in con- junction with the decline of moderate religion may produce a widening cultural gulf between rising secularists and persistently intense religionists.16 Subsequently, symbolic boundaries could become more clearly demarcated as there are fewer people to bridge the cultural chasm between the most and least religious Americans. Whereas religion is simply irrelevant to many secularists in comparable societies used to illustrate the secularization thesis, secular and spiritual-but-not-religious Americans often define themselves in opposition to politicized strict religion (Lipka 2016). And although religion is simply becoming less salient in other societies, it remains important in the public sphere and central to cultural divides in the United States. Therefore, rather than following the pattern we would expect on the basis of the secularization thesis, American religion remains persistently and exceptionally intense.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry, I have no need to be "passive aggressive". If I want to be aggressive, I'm just aggressive :lol2:

Look, it is by now no longer important since Jolly posted some more substantial evidence, but you just kept referring to a Pew study which is about something different than what you talk about and about a single half-sentence from Wikipedia that refers to some random text but not about empirical data. I was not talking about percentages but about evidence. As Jolly has demonstrated, it wasn't so hard to produce it. You could have avoided the whole discussion if you had just produced a corresponding link instead of berating me.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
And you could have avoided it by spending your time discussing the issue instead of trying to sidetrack it, and you know damned well that's exactly what you were doing.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
jon-nyc
Jul 9 2018, 08:58 AM
Yeah what is that ‘coming home’ sh1t about anyway? The cup just visited there once, right? over half a century ago now.
We invented the game, and the first international was in the UK. The fact that we're so sh!t at it is an unhealed and festering wound in the heart of every Englishman.

When I say 'we', I don't really mean to take credit. I think the game originated in the 8th century, and the modern rules were developed by a bunch of posh English schools in the 1800's, when the rich people needed to take time off from buggering one another and ordering the lower classes to kill the French, although not necessarily in that order.

Anyway, let's get back to WTF's obsession with whatever-the-heck it was Quirt was posting about. I have to say, it's a braver man than I am who would trade statistical analysis with the Q'ster, even if he isn't here to answer back. I'm literally glued to my seat with excitement.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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