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So the UK is going to impose the death sentence...
Topic Started: Apr 22 2018, 07:30 PM (1,855 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
on someone not quite two years old...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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If what I’ve read is accurate, this case disgusts me.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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Unbelievable. The state can decide to take a child's life.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Jolly
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Welcome to the new world.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
If the discussion would be about the costs of the procedure, I could understand it. In a hopeless case it is understandable to not let the public carry presumably large additional costs.

However, the way it is presented I fail to see the logic of the court. The parents should have the last say. And if the brain is mostly dead, then it isn't "inhumane" to continue, because the child wouldn't notice anything either way.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Davis
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When you have a scare commodity (money and resources) such as the NHS budget you have to decide where you are going to spend it. Extreme example: 1 million on a hopeless, brain dead child who will die anyway or that million that could save 10 other children.

Now getting that out of the way, I’d probably focus on helping the parents find peace and keep this out of the news. Now that it’s public the politics are in full play.

Would I pull the plug on this child, no way.
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jon-nyc
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What put me over the edge (if I’m getting the story right) is their refusal to let the kid be transferred to the Italian hospital that offered to treat her.

There’s no state or NHS interest there. That just reeks of bureaucrats that don’t want to be overruled.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Davis
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jon-nyc
Apr 23 2018, 04:42 AM
What put me over the edge (if I’m getting the story right) is their refusal to let the kid be transferred to the Italian hospital that offered to treat her.

There’s no state or NHS interest there. That just reeks of bureaucrats that don’t want to be overruled.
I guess I missed the main point. Probably because I assumed not possible. My brain does that sometimes when it deems something not possible, it ignores it. Have had a few hilarious and thankfully not tragic events as a result of this.
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John Galt
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jon-nyc
Apr 23 2018, 04:42 AM
What put me over the edge (if I’m getting the story right) is their refusal to let the kid be transferred to the Italian hospital that offered to treat her.

There’s no state or NHS interest there. That just reeks of bureaucrats that don’t want to be overruled.
What a ghastly situation. That poor little boy.

I think there are a lot of pieces to the puzzle. I'll add a couple of more.

What the Italian experts said and what they can offer:

Quote:
 
He said that, at the request of the parents, three medical experts from the Vatican-linked Bambino Gesu Paediatric Hospital in Rome had visited Alfie in Alder Hey.

They had reached the same conclusions in terms of the "complete futility" of trying to find a cure or alleviating his seizures.

The Italian experts had suggested operations to help Alfie breathe and feed and keep him alive for an "undefined period".

But Dr Martin Samuels, an expert in the ventilation of children, believed such operations were "inappropriate".


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-42903246

The Catholic English and Welsh bishops issued a statement:

Quote:
 
Our hearts go out to the parents of Alfie Evans and our prayers are for him and with them as they try to do all they can to care for their son.

We affirm our conviction that all those who are and have been taking the agonising decisions regarding the care of Alfie Evans act with integrity and for Alfie's good as they see it.

The professionalism and care for severely ill children shown at Alder Hey Hospital is to be recognised and affirmed. We know that recently reported public criticism of their work is unfounded as our chaplaincy care for the staff, and indeed offered to the family, has been consistently provided.

We note the offer of the Bambino Gesu Hospital in Rome to care for Alfie Evans. It is for that Hospital to present to the British Courts, where crucial decisions in conflicts of opinion have to be taken, the medical reasons for an exception to be made in this tragic case.

With the Holy Father, we pray that, with love and realism, everything will be done to accompany Alfie and his parents in their deep suffering.


http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/04/18/criticisms-of-alfie-evans-hospital-are-unfounded-say-bishops/
Edited by John Galt, Apr 23 2018, 05:18 AM.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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jon-nyc
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JG - to which I say a big ‘so fvcking what’?

What’s the state’s or NHS’ interest in *not* allowing the kid to go to Italy for futile care?

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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I certainly get the state’s - society’s really - interest in not *paying* for futile care. But that’s not what’s going on here. Or not all that is going on.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John Galt
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I haven't read much about the case (this thread is the first I heard of it and I quickly scanned a few articles to get some more info). And I certainly am not medically qualified to assess Alfie's case.

I don't have enough info to form an opinion and was just offering a few bits that I picked up; they hadn't been mentioned here previously.

Edited by John Galt, Apr 23 2018, 05:37 AM.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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jon-nyc
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Fair enough. But my position is medical qualifications are completely irrelevant. I mean completely, like not a smidgen more relevant than plumbing qualifications. This a purely a question of political philosophy.


What right does the state have to tell *you* not to apply futile treatment to your own dying son? By the way, it’s only futile treatment for certain values of futile.

(obviously medical expertise is required to determine the expected outcome of care, but I’m just taking that as a given here. This is clearly not an argument about which care to apply)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John Galt
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I think the crux of the issue is the welfare of the child as perceived by various parties. I believe your position is that the parents have primacy and the medical community and the state/courts should not interfere. I'd like to offer a counterargument, not because I necessarily take the opposite side (I'm still in the I don't have enough info mode regarding Alfie's case), but in order to step back and look at the case from a slightly different perspective.

The state can and does override parental rights on a regular basis when a child's welfare is considered in jeopardy. There are laws and courts and experts that try to put all the pieces (legal, medical, ethical) together and make the best decision for the child. Kids get taken away from their parents for all sorts of reasons. Children can be removed to protect their physical safety, and courts rule routinely on custody cases in divorces, basically making a determination of what is in the best interest of the kid, given all the information pertinent to a particular case.

I believe there have been cases where courts have forced medical treatment for children over the parents' objections.

I don't know how this case can be considered without taking into account the medical aspects because it is what is driving the determination by the doctors that it is not in the best interests of Alfie to continue his treatment.

I guess my question back to you is can the medical community/state ever have a vote and override the parents' wishes? Such as in the case of potentially helpful medical treatment withheld by the parents?


Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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jon-nyc
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Of course! And those are all excellent examples. Because in each one there's a competing state interest. (or really, a societal interest)

But that's what is lacking here. All I see is a bureaucratic interest - and a foul one at that.



In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Axtremus
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+1 on what jon-nyc said.

I may change my mind later if competing state or social interest is demonstrated, but I haven't see that yet.
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Klaus
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If I were a parent, I would probably agree with the proposed procedure, but there is really no reason why the wish of the parents cannot be respected.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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jon-nyc
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Yeah, I would agree too. I'm certainly not approaching this from a 'sanctity of life' point of view.


It is perfectly reasonable for the state - society really - to say "we do not value the life of a person in a vegetative state at $1MM dollars a year" (or whatever the cost is)

But it is totally unreasonable for the state to say "we do not value the life of a person in a vegetative state at $1MM dollars a year and you may not do so either".
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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jon-nyc
Apr 23 2018, 05:28 AM
JG - to which I say a big ‘so fvcking what’?

What’s the state’s or NHS’ interest in *not* allowing the kid to go to Italy for futile care?

Preach. This is not a direction we want to go. It is an imposed death, not just letting nature take its course.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Friday
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It seems that the European Court of Human Rights have rejected the parents case. And that there is a guard preventing the parents from taking the baby.

I really don't understand why the parents need permission from a court to find alternative care for their baby. Nor do I understand why the hospital would care if the family took the baby elsewhere.
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Larry
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If it was my child that guard would have a life or death decision to make.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Waiting for MB to chime in, surely this case has gotten much more attention over there.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Apr 23 2018, 08:50 AM
If it was my child that guard would have a life or death decision to make.
+1

I would have already made mine. Probably wouldn't get out alive but I would not care at that point.
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Jolly
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Would this case be considered active euthanasia?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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jon-nyc
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Not by any normal definition. It is turning off life support at the end of the day.
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