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Sabotaging the Census
Topic Started: Dec 30 2017, 11:24 AM (180 Views)
George K
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Finally
By asking if you're a citizen.

Quote:
 
The Justice Department is pushing for a question on citizenship to be added to the 2020 census, a move that observers say could depress participation by immigrants who fear that the government could use the information against them. That, in turn, could have potentially large ripple effects for everything the once-a-decade census determines — from how congressional seats are distributed around the country to where hundreds of billions of federal dollars are spent.

The DOJ made the request in a previously unreported letter, dated Dec. 12 and obtained by ProPublica, from DOJ official Arthur Gary to the top official at the Census Bureau, which is part of the Commerce Department. The letter argues that the DOJ needs better citizenship data to better enforce the Voting Rights Act “and its important protections against racial discrimination in voting.”

A Census Bureau spokesperson confirmed the agency received the letter and said the “request will go through the well-established process that any potential question would go through.” The DOJ declined to comment and the White House did not respond to a request for comment.

Observers said they feared adding a citizenship question would not only lower response rates, but also make the census more expensive and throw a wrench into the system with just two years to go before the 2020 count. Questions are usually carefully field-tested, a process that can take years.

“This is a recipe for sabotaging the census,” said Arturo Vargas, a member of the National Advisory Committee of the Census and the executive director of NALEO Educational Fund, a Latino advocacy group. “When you start adding last-minute questions that are not tested — how will the public understand the question? How much will it suppress response rates?”

The 2010 census included a handful of questions covering age, sex, race, Hispanic origin, household relationship and owner/renter status — but not citizenship.

“People are not going to come out to be counted because they’re going to be fearful the information would be used for negative purposes,” said Steve Jost, a former top bureau official during the 2010 census. “This line about enforcing voting rights is a new and scary twist.” He noted that since the first census in 1790, the goal has been to count everyone in the country, not just citizens.

There have been rumblings since the beginning of the year that the Trump administration wanted to add a citizenship question to the census. Adding to the concerns about the 2020 count, Politico reported last month that the administration may appoint to a top job at the bureau a Republican redistricting expert who wrote a book called “Redistricting and Representation: Why Competitive Elections Are Bad for America.” The Census Bureau’s population count determines how the 435 U.S. House seats are distributed.

The law governing the census gives the commerce secretary, currently Wilbur Ross, the power to decide on questions. They must be submitted to Congress for review two years before the census, in this case by April 2018. A census spokesperson said the agency will also release the questions publicly at that time.

A recent Census Bureau presentation shows that the political climate is already having an effect on responsiveness to the bureau’s American Community Survey, which asks a more extensive list of questions, including on citizenship status, to about one in 38 households in the country per year. In one case, census interviewers reported, a respondent “walked out and left interviewer alone in home during citizenship questions.”

“Three years ago, [it] was so much easier to get respondents compared to now because of the government changes … and trust factors. … Three years ago I didn’t have problems with the immigration questions,” said another census interviewer.

The Justice Department letter argues that including a citizenship question on the once-a-decade census would allow the agency to better enforce Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, which bars the dilution of voting power of a minority group through redistricting.

“To fully enforce those requirements, the Department needs a reliable calculation of the citizen voting-age population in localities where voting rights violations are alleged or suspected,” the letter states. The letter asks that the Census Bureau “reinstate” the question.

The full census, however, hasn’t included questions about citizenship since 1950. The Census Bureau has gathered such data in other surveys. The bureau switched the method of those surveys after the 2000 census. Today, it conducts the American Community Survey every year, which includes questions about citizenship, along with many other questions. The survey covers a sample of residents of the United States.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
How in hell can you do a census without knowing who is and is not a citizen? As I recall the last census had 7 zillion questions all more personal and less related to census than that.
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John Galt
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Apparently it's about population, not citizens. From Wiki:

Quote:
 
Decennial U.S. Census figures are based on actual counts of persons dwelling in U.S. residential structures. They include citizens, non-citizen legal residents, non-citizen long-term visitors and illegal immigrants.


How congressional seats are apportioned:

https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-08.pdf

Quote:
 
As I recall the last census had 7 zillion questions all more personal and less related to census than that.


But could your answers to those other questions get you deported?



Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Personally, I don't give a rolling red rat's rectum.

It is not the purpose of the United States of America to make illegal aliens comfortable.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John Galt
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I thought the original article was about conducting an accurate census and that asking the question might skew the results.

Where did it say anything about comfort?
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John Galt
Dec 30 2017, 01:00 PM
I thought the original article was about conducting an accurate census and that asking the question might skew the results.

Where did it say anything about comfort?
The article presupposes asking such a question would make an illegal fearful (I used the word not comfortable, as in uncomfortable). I thought I used a bit nicer term, but fearful works fine.

I also don't give a rolling red rat's rectum if the census questions make an illegal alien fearful. The United States of America does not exist to abate fear in illegal aliens.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John Galt
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I think your answer is more about saber rattling than discussing the issue raised in the article, but I'll try again.

I think the presupposition is reasonable, given how deportations have been occurring over the last year (people nabbed when they went in to report at INS offices like they have for years or when they were dropping kids off at school).

Getting an accurate count does seem to be the whole point of a census, isn't it? If there is a reason (regardless of what that reason is) that someone will not accurately fill out the survey, then the census will not reflect an accurate count.

Wouldn't the census bureau be shirking its duty if it wasn't trying to ensure that it gets the count right?

Edited by John Galt, Dec 30 2017, 01:17 PM.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I think the nation is shirking its duty by spending tax dollars on illegal aliens within its borders. Every school lunch, every medical service proffered, every school book issued, every dime spent on illegals means a dime that cannot be spent to improve schools, housing for the poor or food for the nation's indigent.

Congressional seats and federal grants should not be predicated on the number of illegals within a state, but should be predicated on the citizens of a state. If a question on the Census makes them uncomfortable, good. If it makes them so fearful they will not answer, fine. If it disturbs them so much, they pack their bags and go back home, wonderful!
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
John Galt
Dec 30 2017, 01:15 PM
I think your answer is more about saber rattling than discussing the issue raised in the article, but I'll try again.

I think the presupposition is reasonable, given how deportations have been occurring over the last year (people nabbed when they went in to report at INS offices like they have for years or when they were dropping kids off at school).
What delicious anecdote!

Quote:
 
Getting an accurate count does seem to be the whole point of a census, isn't it? If there is a reason (regardless of what that reason is) that someone will not accurately fill out the survey, then the census will not reflect an accurate count.

Wouldn't the census bureau be shirking its duty if it wasn't trying to ensure that it gets the count right?


Sure. You want an accurate count of what people self-report as. Self-reporting is all the rage these days you know. John.

As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Davis
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Fulla-Carp
The census included citizenship until 1950 and other surveys are used to determine citizenship and are adminstered routinely. The census seems like the best way to do it but if not Teh convoluted ways will still suffice.
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John Galt
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Davis gets it in one. eta: Though I'm not sure the other way is more convoluted.

In the generally useless but kind of interesting category...you can take a look at how the questions change over time: https://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/
Edited by John Galt, Dec 30 2017, 03:04 PM.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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George K
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Finally
I'm too lazy to look up the details of the proposed and past laws. However, let me ask a philosophical question:

Should it not be in the best interest of the government to know who lives within its borders? Should it not be in its interest to also know who are citizens (and merit representation) and who are not?
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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John Galt
Fulla-Carp
Man, I must not be very clear. Well, except Davis who seemed to understand.

1) Yes, it's reasonable for the government to know that.
2) How that is accomplished is subject to analysis.

Apparently the Justice Department wants to use the census to achieve 1). The article lays out reasons why using the census might not be the right vehicle to do so. Some argue that trying to get this information by including it as a census question might screw up the census, and by extension, other information that is gathered.



Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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John Galt
Fulla-Carp
(special for Horace: The Census Bureau is interested how the delicious anecdotes affect people's responses.)

From the original article, a link to a Census Bureau presentation from November that discusses some of the confidentiality issues in detail.

https://www2.census.gov/cac/nac/meetings/2017-11/Meyers-NAC-Confidentiality-Presentation.pdf

(Also for Horace - And they've spent a lot of time and tax dollars trying to figure out ways to get accurate self-reported data - here's version 3 of their 2020 census operational report)

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial/2020/program-management/planning-docs/2020-oper-plan3.pdf
Edited by John Galt, Dec 30 2017, 05:25 PM.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
For reasons stated above, I don't think it's germane for the government to allocate resources based on illegals, therefore their willingness to answer should only count as an enumeration tactic.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Copper
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Shortstop
John Galt
Dec 30 2017, 12:47 PM

But could your answers to those other questions get you deported?




If you are here illegally then I hope the answer is yes.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
John Galt
Dec 30 2017, 01:15 PM
I think your answer is more about saber rattling than discussing the issue raised in the article, but I'll try again.

I think the presupposition is reasonable, given how deportations have been occurring over the last year (people nabbed when they went in to report at INS offices like they have for years or when they were dropping kids off at school).

Getting an accurate count does seem to be the whole point of a census, isn't it? If there is a reason (regardless of what that reason is) that someone will not accurately fill out the survey, then the census will not reflect an accurate count.

Wouldn't the census bureau be shirking its duty if it wasn't trying to ensure that it gets the count right?

What matters more to you, accommodating illegal aliens and f*cking up the census in the process, or getting an accurate census so that legal citizens are represented properly?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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