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Is ignorance a valid excuse?
Topic Started: Oct 12 2017, 12:12 PM (777 Views)
xenon
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Middle Aged Carp
The President didn't stand up during Retreat last night on Hannity. (He seems like he didn't even know what it was - should the Commander in Chief have cursory knowledge of this sort of protocol?)

Now - I didn't realize this was a thing until today. But does it matter? Should he have? Does it not matter because he clearly didn't have any ill-intent (like the NFL kneelers). Is this comparable to Obama's coffee cup kerfuffle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bXqhYq4erg
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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
I'm confused.
Is your topic title directed at yourself?

No, really. Great questions!

I've wondered the same thing, plus the following:

If the national anthem is played, but the president is not there, should he still stand?

If the president kneels to tie his shoe, what is HE protesting, and does it matter?

If the president has a broken leg, should he still stand when a dignitary enters the room? Or only if both legs are broken? How about one broken leg, the other merely sprained?

Your question, "does it matter" is a good one as well. Hope I've been of some help.

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Copper
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Shortstop
I worked at military bases that played retreat. The civilians stood and put the right hand over the heart while the flag was lowered.

I don't believe there was any penalty for not doing this and I don't believe all military bases do it.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
Oh, I seem to have misunderstood!

I thought "Retreat" was like, a French military song or something.

:whome:
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Improviso
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rainman
Oct 12 2017, 01:00 PM
I thought "Retreat" was like, a French military song or something.

:whome:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments
and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism.

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Mikhailoh
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Rainman
Oct 12 2017, 01:00 PM
Oh, I seem to have misunderstood!

I thought "Retreat" was like, a French military song or something.

:whome:
POTD :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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xenon
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Rainman
Oct 12 2017, 12:37 PM
I'm confused.
Is your topic title directed at yourself?

No, really. Great questions!

I've wondered the same thing, plus the following:

If the national anthem is played, but the president is not there, should he still stand?

If the president kneels to tie his shoe, what is HE protesting, and does it matter?

If the president has a broken leg, should he still stand when a dignitary enters the room? Or only if both legs are broken? How about one broken leg, the other merely sprained?

Your question, "does it matter" is a good one as well. Hope I've been of some help.

This is actually funny - because it mirrors my perception of silliness and ritual about showing respect to a flag/anthem.

That said - it may be just me. I really respect the mission and sacrifice of people involved in various 20th century conflicts - I'm just not much of a PDA person.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Anyone who thinks showing respect for the US flag is "silly" is a piece of sh!t that doesn't deserve to live in this country, and can kiss my ass.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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xenon
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I mean - if you want to get all pedantic about it, Trump didn't - but you're fine with that.
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Jolly
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The Truth is out there.
xenon
Oct 12 2017, 05:03 PM
I mean - if you want to get all pedantic about it, Trump didn't - but you're fine with that.
TDS.

Most civilians don't even know what Retreat is. Even the soldiers at Fort Polk have to be reminded of base policy for Retreat when attending JRTC exercises.

You're reaching. Bad.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Luke's Dad
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xenon
Oct 12 2017, 05:03 PM
I mean - if you want to get all pedantic about it, Trump didn't - but you're fine with that.
If Xenon scores three from past the arc, and everybody else is playing marbles, does it count?

As a moderate conservative, I've generally enjoyed your contributions, Xenon.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Mikhailoh
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I would agree. Fun.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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xenon
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Alright - I had no idea how meaningless the Retreat ditty was. As I said, I didnít even know it existed until today.
Edited by xenon, Oct 12 2017, 06:44 PM.
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Jolly
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The Truth is out there.
xenon
Oct 12 2017, 06:43 PM
Alright - I had no idea how meaningless the Retreat ditty was. As I said, I didnít even know it existed until today.
It's not meaningless and there is protocol, but it's not something a civilian really knows about. Like I said, at Fort Polk they have to remind incoming soldiers what to do.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
xenon
Oct 12 2017, 05:03 PM
I mean - if you want to get all pedantic about it, Trump didn't - but you're fine with that.
You show me when Trump didn't show respect for the flag or kiss my ass.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Davis
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Senior Carp
xenon, pretend you are in a class and the debate about the flag is occurring, actually it has been going on for an hour. You raise your hand to make a point, what is it, I didn't really hear your question.
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Catseye3
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Quote:
 
This is actually funny - because it mirrors my perception of silliness and ritual about showing respect to a flag/anthem.

That said - it may be just me. I really respect the mission and sacrifice of people involved in various 20th century conflicts - I'm just not much of a PDA person.


Then why is the whole thing an issue for you?

I almost never know what you're talking about, probably because you under-explain your points and write without clarity. In the above you find flag ritual "silly" -- which pisses me off -- yet you find the NFL dissing as being with 'ill intent', which is only one interpretation of their motive in kneeling and not gospel truth. There is something flippant about your claim that you "really respect" the mission and sacrifice; I can almost hear the "yadda-yadda" trailing after. I think you could do with some consciousness-raising about that. And you imply disdain for "PDA people".

At best you're confused.

Oh, and another thing. Retreat is not meaningless.

"If you don't risk anything, you risk even more." -- Erica Jong
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xenon
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Middle Aged Carp
I thought the question was implied - sorry for being unclear.

The President - guy at the top of the org chart for the military - didnít stand up for Retreat. Is ignorance a valid excuse?

I gathered from Jollyís response that, yes, itís not a very well known thing and ignorance is a valid excuse.
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Davis
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I finally opened up the you tube. I don't even know what to say when people make note of this, it's make something out of nothing... Trolling used to have specific meaning but with social media I think we have to define trolling in its various forms. I'm not calling out xenon for trolling.

I wonder how people spend their lives reading chaff. Separating the wheat from the chaff used to be an important skill, now the chaff is the medium.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
He's not trolling, he's expressing himself.

Xenon I think you seek consistency, which is unlikely to happen when dealing with people. Two peole can say the exact same thing in the same tone of voice and have it perceived completely differently based on a thousand factors.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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xenon
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Mik - this is exactly what I came to appreciate over the last year or so - along with another critical fact.

Arguments of logic and consistency will be used by people on the left and right when it suits their situation, but when that doesn't work arguments of intent and context are used.

Not only are we becoming more "tribal" but we're losing any sort of language we might have once had to have a civil discourse between different groups.

I'm guilty of it myself - anytime Trump says something I agree with my gut reaction is "Ah fvck, he has a point"
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Larry
Oct 12 2017, 08:11 PM
xenon
Oct 12 2017, 05:03 PM
I mean - if you want to get all pedantic about it, Trump didn't - but you're fine with that.
You show me when Trump didn't show respect for the flag or kiss my ass.
Personally, I found his hugging the flag like it was his binky very distasteful and disrespectful. I'm sure others didn't.

I will give Trump credit. I have not been able to find any evidence of wearing a hat, shirt, or tie with a flag on it. His supporters on the other hand are completely disrespecting the flag. Sometimes knpwingly and sometimes unknowingly, but when it is shown to them that they are violating the flag code, they mostly ignore it.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Far worse than taking a knee?

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Posted Image

The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Davis
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Senior Carp
Any experts here on the protocol of what you are supposed to do if you are indoors during the playing of Retreat?

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