Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Trump UN Speech
Topic Started: Sep 19 2017, 03:17 PM (1,250 Views)
KlavierBauer
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Historically, passive resistance has a nearly 100% success rate, while violent resistance has an abysmal rate of success past the first 20 years.
Maybe we can hope that the people will begin to change their country from the inside - but given that they are basically prisoners, some outside help would definitely go a long way.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
You mean like vaporizing the country's military and political command structure? :excited:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Catseye3
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Mikhailoh
Sep 20 2017, 02:15 PM
You mean like vaporizing the country's military and political command structure? :excited:

Why not? Heck, let's just do it. Screw 'em all. In fact, if we hurry we can flatten the whole country by the weekend, then kick back!

Never mind. Fuck it. We'll all get what we ask for.

That's it for me for today. Ima go listen to Jimmy Cliff sing I Can See Clearly Now. It always cheers me up when I get too much reminding of the assholery of the human race.
"I shall now begin to speak of purple, which exceeds all the colors that have so far been mentioned both in costliness and in the superiority of its delightful effect." -- Vitruvius, De architectura, 1st century BC.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Weekend?

One Boomer could probably do the job in a half hour.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Renauda
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Catseye3
Sep 20 2017, 01:43 PM
Quote:
 
Use technology as a weapon to inform the people of the reality of the rest in the world, as opposed to the internal propaganda and lock on information access. Air drop hardware, etc. by the millions, self contained gadgets. This is already being done, but not on a massive scale. This could in time cause an uprising close to the top, or by people in the streets with torches.


A few weeks ago, Taiwan Girl wrote that "the North Korean people are already catching on". I was hoping she would elaborate on that.

It could work. At the very least, it might roil the internal waters enough to take Kim's attention away from his nukes.
Less than thirty years ago western intelligence agencies including the CIA thought it inconceivable that the East European communist regimes would be replaced and the USSR would collapse on itself. In fact when it became undeniably apparent that the latter could evaporate and break apart, it was not welcomed at all by the US or other NATO members.

The West did not at the time realize the extent to which modem technology had the hand of reformers such as Gorbachev in opening up what had previously been a model post Stalinist totalitarian state. Despite the Stalinist aspects of North Korea, what it is facing is in today's age of hyper tecnology is no different.

Taiwan Girl is spot on when she states North Koreans are catching on regardless of whether its leadership is willing, capable of, or even sufficiently courageous to initiate reform of its own totalitarian governance model.

I am sure that Kaiser Trumpf's ongoing bluster and sabre rattling does nothing in moving the NK towards anything other than more reaction.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Quote:
 
I am sure that Kaiser Trumpf's ongoing bluster and sabre rattling does nothing in moving the NK towards anything other than more reaction.


OK, since Mr. Kim is busy shooting missiles over our allies, what do you want us to do?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
I'd be interested in hearing about where "passive resistance" has defeated anyone.

Jesus.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Kaiser Clinton?

https://spectator.org/when-bill-clinton-threatened-to-end-north-korea/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
Jolly
Sep 20 2017, 03:24 PM
http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=11082121&t=9034238
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Renauda
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Sep 20 2017, 02:59 PM
Quote:
 
I am sure that Kaiser Trumpf's ongoing bluster and sabre rattling does nothing in moving the NK towards anything other than more reaction.


OK, since Mr. Kim is busy shooting missiles over our allies, what do you want us to do?
Sit down with the Chinese and Russians who share a border with NK, are nuclear powers and along with the USA are the major powers of the Pacific region and work out an agreement on the North Korean question acceptable to all three of you.

A return to pre WWI sphere of influence diplomacy is in order here. Just be aware the US may not be able to call all the plays in this game of high stakes. In fact, it may have to accept a co starring role in this production.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Renauda
Sep 20 2017, 03:37 PM
Jolly
Sep 20 2017, 02:59 PM
Quote:
 
I am sure that Kaiser Trumpf's ongoing bluster and sabre rattling does nothing in moving the NK towards anything other than more reaction.


OK, since Mr. Kim is busy shooting missiles over our allies, what do you want us to do?
Sit down with the Chinese and Russians who share a border with NK, are nuclear powers and along with the USA the majors powers of the Pacific region and work out an agreement on the North Korean question acceptable to all three of you.

A return to pre WWI sphere of influence diplomacy is in order here. Just be aware aware the US may not be able to call all the plays in this game of high stakes. In fact, it may have accept a role co starring role in this production.
Perhaps Russia, but we've about chewed China's ear off. Chinese banks are STILL bankrolling the NORKS.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Renauda
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
George K
Sep 20 2017, 03:36 PM
Yes George, I already read that. Bill Clinton was no Kaiser despite being a Willy.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Renauda
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Sep 20 2017, 03:39 PM
Renauda
Sep 20 2017, 03:37 PM
Jolly
Sep 20 2017, 02:59 PM
Quote:
 
I am sure that Kaiser Trumpf's ongoing bluster and sabre rattling does nothing in moving the NK towards anything other than more reaction.


OK, since Mr. Kim is busy shooting missiles over our allies, what do you want us to do?
Sit down with the Chinese and Russians who share a border with NK, are nuclear powers and along with the USA the majors powers of the Pacific region and work out an agreement on the North Korean question acceptable to all three of you.

A return to pre WWI sphere of influence diplomacy is in order here. Just be aware aware the US may not be able to call all the plays in this game of high stakes. In fact, it may have accept a role co starring role in this production.
Perhaps Russia, but we've about chewed China's ear off. Chinese banks are STILL bankrolling the NORKS.
Then start talking and chewing on the other ear.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
Seen on the web:

Quote:
 
North Korean Foreign Minister Ri Yong-ho slammed U.S. President Donald Trump on Wednesday, saying his threat to destroy the nation amounted to ‘the sound of a dog barking.’”

Well, that's much better than dog eating.

Posted Image
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Copper
Member Avatar
Shortstop
Catseye3
Sep 20 2017, 12:50 PM
if it's true that we -- 'we' being the West and maybe China -- have something Kim wants, then Kim can be had.

What he wants is to kill everyone in America.

That would leave very few people to carry on in tncr.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rainman
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Copper
Sep 20 2017, 08:17 PM
Catseye3
Sep 20 2017, 12:50 PM
if it's true that we -- 'we' being the West and maybe China -- have something Kim wants, then Kim can be had.

What he wants is to kill everyone in America.

That would leave very few people to carry on in tncr.

I don't know, Copper.

Seems to me he does not necessarily want to kill everyone in America.

He wants it to appear that he could, if, and only IF, he wanted to.

Or at least, that's what he knows his own people believe, and hopes the rest of the world will fall for it.

At some point, given the trajectory, he will need to prove it once the "testing" convinces the world he is indeed capable. Ramping up and bluffing will only work for so long.

The only thing he needs to come up with other than propaganda, is some sort of answer to "why?" - both before and after the carnage begins, regardless of how it all starts.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
KlavierBauer
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry - there are *many* examples ranging from smaller movements shifting societal norms (often leading to larger movements), to full blown revolutions...

Tiananmen Square beginning a huge political and economical shift in China, Martin Luther King Jr. and the Civil Rights movement in the U.S., Ghandi attaining self rule for India, the downfall of Slobodan Milošević in Serbia, Bolivia in 2005, the downfall of communism across the Eastern Block in 1989 ... the list goes on and on.

If you're genuinely curious, there's a great TED talk on this by a local professor who cites studies going back over a century on this subject. The data are pretty clear actually, that non-violent resistance is incredibly more successful than violent resistance - especially in terms of long-term viability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w

Edited by KlavierBauer, Sep 20 2017, 09:14 PM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Horace
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Sep 20 2017, 02:14 PM
Historically, passive resistance has a nearly 100% success rate, while violent resistance has an abysmal rate of success past the first 20 years.
You'd have to define "historically". I'm pretty sure that for most reasonable definitions of "historically", any resistance meaningful enough that the more powerful aggressors noticed it, ended in death.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Sep 20 2017, 12:05 PM
So, what do you want to do with this sucker?
I don't have a magic bullet.

I'd try to keep the situation stable, put just enough pressure on NK that they don't expand their power but won't start a nuclear war, try to get the best possible intelligence out of NK to understand what is going on, and try to find an opportunity to get rid of this regime with minimal loss of human life.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Horace
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
I suspect that the world can probably wait out the NK thing, even if it hurts a bit and for a while. I love the idea to bombard the country with information and technology. (Via information technology bombardments.) A war of idea attrition.

The issue is when terrorist cells, rather than nation states, attain nukes. Of course we're all screwed then.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
KlavierBauer
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
Sep 20 2017, 09:26 PM
KlavierBauer
Sep 20 2017, 02:14 PM
Historically, passive resistance has a nearly 100% success rate, while violent resistance has an abysmal rate of success past the first 20 years.
You'd have to define "historically". I'm pretty sure that for most reasonable definitions of "historically", any resistance meaningful enough that the more powerful aggressors noticed it, ended in death.
Fair point - we can limit the scope to the last 150 years or so.
It does seem counterintuitive, but long lasting changes have worked better through non-violence.

America is an anomaly in this regard. While our Revolution started as a non-violent resistance, it of course became a full fledged war. What's anomalous is that we've been able to retain that independence, as most times such uprisings don't stay stable very long past the initial revolt.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Horace
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Sep 20 2017, 10:29 PM
Horace
Sep 20 2017, 09:26 PM
KlavierBauer
Sep 20 2017, 02:14 PM
Historically, passive resistance has a nearly 100% success rate, while violent resistance has an abysmal rate of success past the first 20 years.
You'd have to define "historically". I'm pretty sure that for most reasonable definitions of "historically", any resistance meaningful enough that the more powerful aggressors noticed it, ended in death.
Fair point - we can limit the scope to the last 150 years or so.
It does seem counterintuitive, but long lasting changes have worked better through non-violence.

America is an anomaly in this regard. While our Revolution started as a non-violent resistance, it of course became a full fledged war. What's anomalous is that we've been able to retain that independence, as most times such uprisings don't stay stable very long past the initial revolt.
That seems mostly about the technology of violence. The days of superior numbers trumping superior technology are over... though they probably lasted a really really long time. We've reached now an equilibrium where numbers and technology are about the same. Because the numbers have the technology. And only because of that.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
KlavierBauer
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
Sep 20 2017, 10:28 PM
I suspect that the world can probably wait out the NK thing, even if it hurts a bit and for a while. I love the idea to bombard the country with information and technology. (Via information technology bombardments.) A war of idea attrition.

The issue is when terrorist cells, rather than nation states, attain nukes. Of course we're all screwed then.
I think this is a good point.

NK isn't really interested in world domination, because it isn't a movement or ideology bent on expansion - it is a single person with a few close associations who help keep the charade going, who've imprisoned an entire nation.
The posturing we're seeing now is very similar to what we've seen for a long time from them, and from what I've read from folks much more well versed on the subject - this just that - posturing.

I think it's valid that a violent ideology attaining the same power is a much different situation, and possibly even warrants consideration of first-strike.
I agree with Sam Harris on a great many things - but this one thing (that he's taken so much flack for) in particular.

I think we have a bit of a responsibility to wait out the NK thing as long as we possibly can, due to the prisoners we risk killing to get to the warden.
I don't think NK will strike anyone - but I'm also not naive enough to think such a thing is impossible. I just hope we don't jump the gun with an impulsive, seemingly unreasoned captain at the helm.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
KlavierBauer
Sep 20 2017, 09:14 PM
Larry - there are *many* examples ranging from smaller movements shifting societal norms (often leading to larger movements), to full blown revolutions...

Tiananmen Square beginning a huge political and economical shift in China, Martin Luther King Jr. and the Civil Rights movement in the U.S., Ghandi attaining self rule for India, the downfall of Slobodan Milošević in Serbia, Bolivia in 2005, the downfall of communism across the Eastern Block in 1989 ... the list goes on and on.

If you're genuinely curious, there's a great TED talk on this by a local professor who cites studies going back over a century on this subject. The data are pretty clear actually, that non-violent resistance is incredibly more successful than violent resistance - especially in terms of long-term viability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w

One million people died during Ghandi's movement in India.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
KlavierBauer
Sep 20 2017, 10:36 PM
Horace
Sep 20 2017, 10:28 PM
I suspect that the world can probably wait out the NK thing, even if it hurts a bit and for a while. I love the idea to bombard the country with information and technology. (Via information technology bombardments.) A war of idea attrition.

The issue is when terrorist cells, rather than nation states, attain nukes. Of course we're all screwed then.
I think this is a good point.

NK isn't really interested in world domination, because it isn't a movement or ideology bent on expansion - it is a single person with a few close associations who help keep the charade going, who've imprisoned an entire nation.
The posturing we're seeing now is very similar to what we've seen for a long time from them, and from what I've read from folks much more well versed on the subject - this just that - posturing.

I think it's valid that a violent ideology attaining the same power is a much different situation, and possibly even warrants consideration of first-strike.
I agree with Sam Harris on a great many things - but this one thing (that he's taken so much flack for) in particular.

I think we have a bit of a responsibility to wait out the NK thing as long as we possibly can, due to the prisoners we risk killing to get to the warden.
I don't think NK will strike anyone - but I'm also not naive enough to think such a thing is impossible. I just hope we don't jump the gun with an impulsive, seemingly unreasoned captain at the helm.
Shooting missiles over American allies is provocation, not simply posturing.

I've said repeatedly if I was North Korea, and especially if I was China, the last thing I want in that part of the world is a pissed-off and militarized Japan.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Fully Featured & Customizable Free Forums
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply