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Destroying Symbols: Where Does It End?
Topic Started: Aug 16 2017, 06:45 AM (625 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
No peace for you...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/08/16/protesters-atlanta-tear-peace-monument-mistaking-confederate-symbol/amp/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Aug 16 2017, 05:24 PM
Ax, surely even you can see that the Berlin Wall and statues of Saddam represented current repression. The same cannot remotely be said of Confederate statues.
That's a good and interesting point. Might you have a principled way to determine what is "recent enough" to represent "current repression" and what's "distant enough" to be considered "erasing history"?
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Davis
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Senior Carp
And we hate ISIS for the destruction of Palmyria. Now we know first hand the headwaters of how they got there.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Axtremus
Aug 17 2017, 03:39 AM
Mikhailoh
Aug 16 2017, 05:24 PM
Ax, surely even you can see that the Berlin Wall and statues of Saddam represented current repression. The same cannot remotely be said of Confederate statues.
That's a good and interesting point. Might you have a principled way to determine what is "recent enough" to represent "current repression" and what's "distant enough" to be considered "erasing history"?
If you cannot understand the difference between current and past I cannot help you. That is a very special form of willful blindness.

But passing judgement on the past using today's standards is a fool's errand. What we should be celebrating is the fact that a free people have continually striven to improve the human condition.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Aug 17 2017, 05:06 AM
Axtremus
Aug 17 2017, 03:39 AM
Mikhailoh
Aug 16 2017, 05:24 PM
Ax, surely even you can see that the Berlin Wall and statues of Saddam represented current repression. The same cannot remotely be said of Confederate statues.
That's a good and interesting point. Might you have a principled way to determine what is "recent enough" to represent "current repression" and what's "distant enough" to be considered "erasing history"?
If you cannot understand the difference between current and past I cannot help you. That is a very special form of willful blindness.
Not that I personally refuse to acknowledge the difference, but would like to see if there is a principled way to determine the difference other than just "feeling" it.

If it comes down to how you "feel" is past/present vs. how the protesters "feel" is past/present, then the argument to use past/present to determine what's "erasing history" vs. what's not would be less compelling, less practical.

Would you like to give my request for a principled way to determine what is "recent enough" to represent "current repression" and what's "distant enough" to be considered "erasing history" a good 'ole college try?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
OK Ax...which was more current - the Iraqis toppling statues of Saddam or the antifas toppling statues of Confederates?

Your question is meaningless. There will be no legislation on when statues may be toppled.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Catseye3
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Fulla-Carp
Mikhailoh
Aug 17 2017, 06:26 AM
OK Ax...which was more current - the Iraqis toppling statues of Saddam or the antifas toppling statues of Confederates?

Your question is meaningless. There will be no legislation on when statues may be toppled.
No, it isn't meaningless. I thought Ax's question was a good one. There are probably many interpretations of the difference between current and past. Ask any historian. I'm still pissed at Henry Tudor for so dedicatedly and deliberately blackening the name of Richard Plantagenet when he was too dead to defend himself.

It's especially relevant in this instance, I think. It's the symbolism of statues of people who were influential in events from the past that fueled the whole thing to begin with.
Chocolate doesn't ask silly questions. Chocolate understands.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Catseye3
Aug 17 2017, 06:43 AM
Mikhailoh
Aug 17 2017, 06:26 AM
OK Ax...which was more current - the Iraqis toppling statues of Saddam or the antifas toppling statues of Confederates?

Your question is meaningless. There will be no legislation on when statues may be toppled.
No, it isn't meaningless. I thought Ax's question was a good one. There are probably many interpretations of the difference between current and past. Ask any historian. I'm still pissed at Henry Tudor for so dedicatedly and deliberately blackening the name of Richard Plantagenet when he was too dead to defend himself.

It's especially relevant in this instance, I think. It's the symbolism of statues of people who were influential in events from the past that fueled the whole thing to begin with.
But those statues have been standing for a hundred years or more, with nary a quibble.

Why all the horrible angst, now?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Catseye3
Aug 17 2017, 06:43 AM
I'm still pissed at Henry Tudor for so dedicatedly and deliberately blackening the name of Richard Plantagenet when he was too dead to defend himself.
Then why do you support blackening the names of these people who fought for what they believed in when they are dead and cannot defend themselves?

Simple. The hypocrisy of your guy versus their guy.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Catseye3
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Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Aug 17 2017, 06:47 AM
Catseye3
Aug 17 2017, 06:43 AM
Mikhailoh
Aug 17 2017, 06:26 AM
OK Ax...which was more current - the Iraqis toppling statues of Saddam or the antifas toppling statues of Confederates?

Your question is meaningless. There will be no legislation on when statues may be toppled.
No, it isn't meaningless. I thought Ax's question was a good one. There are probably many interpretations of the difference between current and past. Ask any historian. I'm still pissed at Henry Tudor for so dedicatedly and deliberately blackening the name of Richard Plantagenet when he was too dead to defend himself.

It's especially relevant in this instance, I think. It's the symbolism of statues of people who were influential in events from the past that fueled the whole thing to begin with.
But those statues have been standing for a hundred years or more, with nary a quibble.

Why all the horrible angst, now?
Because it is.

Okay, as true as that is -- a thing happens now because it didn't happen before, and that's all -- but I believe that what I am starting to think of as "the goddamned social media" are at least partly responsible. One guy finds his special grievance echoed by 150 other people and bang! instant legitimacy. The more people believe in a thing, the "truer" the thing becomes. The next thing you know: Charlottesville.

And I'll bet you ten million dollars that there've been plenty of quibbles in the past 100 years -- just not in prime time.
Chocolate doesn't ask silly questions. Chocolate understands.
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Catseye3
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Fulla-Carp
Quote:
 
Then why do you support blackening the names of these people who fought for what they believed in when they are dead and cannot defend themselves?


WTH are you on about? Where did I ever say I supported that???
Chocolate doesn't ask silly questions. Chocolate understands.
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markallen
Middle Aged Carp
This protest went largely ignored when a group of people wanted the Lenin statue in Seattle removed claiming that Marxism was racist. This took place about 6 blocks from my office.



Edited by markallen, Aug 17 2017, 07:15 AM.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Steve Miller
Aug 16 2017, 08:23 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 16 2017, 06:29 PM
WaPo has a paywall -- do you subscribe?
Yes, but I thought everyone got a couple free articles per month.

If you Google the headline you can get to the article in a couple other papers.
maybe I need to clear out my cache -- I've been getting that block screen for a long time.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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George K
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Finally
ivorythumper
Aug 17 2017, 07:18 AM
Steve Miller
Aug 16 2017, 08:23 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 16 2017, 06:29 PM
WaPo has a paywall -- do you subscribe?
Yes, but I thought everyone got a couple free articles per month.

If you Google the headline you can get to the article in a couple other papers.
maybe I need to clear out my cache -- I've been getting that block screen for a long time.
Open the link in a private window. That works for me.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
George K
Aug 17 2017, 07:24 AM
ivorythumper
Aug 17 2017, 07:18 AM
Steve Miller
Aug 16 2017, 08:23 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 16 2017, 06:29 PM
WaPo has a paywall -- do you subscribe?
Yes, but I thought everyone got a couple free articles per month.

If you Google the headline you can get to the article in a couple other papers.
maybe I need to clear out my cache -- I've been getting that block screen for a long time.
Open the link in a private window. That works for me.
geenyus.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
The Left has their monuments too.... one of the tenets of the religion of modern liberalism is abortion, and abortion clinics stand as a testimony to their religious beliefs. These things stand as monuments to the war they've waged against innocent children for decades now, a war that has claimed millions of lives. Now that it is acceptable to tear down monuments to a cause one does not believe in, I'd say it's open season on abortion clinics......
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Catseye3
Aug 17 2017, 06:43 AM
I'm still pissed at Henry Tudor for so dedicatedly and deliberately blackening the name of Richard Plantagenet when he was too dead to defend himself.

As a friend of mine noted, "It takes a special kind of cowardice to make war on the dead."
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 
Why all the horrible angst, now?

It takes time for demographics and ideologies shift.

Statues of dictators are removed by groups of people who view them as symbols of oppression once those people have sufficient power.

So too in democracies historical artifacts that groups of people see as symbols of oppression get removed once those people have sufficient power. When dictators are toppled power changes suddenly, whilst in democracies, demographics and ideologies change more slowly so there is a greater delay. But for good or for ill the underlying reasons are the same.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't believe that any number of elected black presidents or toppled confederate statues will alleviate in any way our pop culture obsession with race.

Other than signalling as loudly and obviously as possible our deep and abiding hatred of racists, I'm not sure what the prime suspects (white folk) are supposed to do, to make things better.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Horace
Aug 17 2017, 08:04 AM
I don't believe that any number of elected black presidents or toppled confederate statues will alleviate in any way our pop culture obsession with race.

Other than signalling as loudly and obviously as possible our deep and abiding hatred of racists, I'm not sure what the prime suspects (white folk) are supposed to do, to make things better.
Die.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Ah, love, let us be true
To one another! for the world, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Catseye3
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Fulla-Carp
Perfect.
Chocolate doesn't ask silly questions. Chocolate understands.
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George K
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Finally
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41258592
Quote:
 
Protesters covered a statue of former US President Thomas Jefferson in black at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.

Dozens of people staged the protest on Tuesday, reportedly posting a sign reading "TJ is a racist and rapist".
The act happened exactly one month after a far-right rally was held against plans to remove the statue of a Confederate general in the town's park.

Jefferson, one of the US founding father, was known for owning slaves.

The black tarpaulin cover has since been removed, according to US media.

Some 100 students, faculty and community members reportedly took part in the demonstration, which mimicked the decision by Charlottesville's authorities last month to shroud Confederate statues.

The protesters marched and chanted slogans against US President Donald Trump and the Ku Klux Klan, and carried Black Lives Matter posters.
Amazing how this country got "woke" in the last 7 months. The statues were a non-issue in the distant past of 2016, but now, they're an outrage.

(See post #2: http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/topic/9031853/1/?x=20#new)
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Copper
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Shortstop

Jefferson is worshiped in Charlottesville, worshiped.

If I wanted to start a serious fight I might cover his statue with a tarp.

Have you guys seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMQQDQhipYg



The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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