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Wealth Distribution in the USA
Topic Started: Sep 20 2016, 03:18 PM (548 Views)
Nobody's Sock
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM


go ahead. Throw your darts. Justify this if you can. Capitalism has a rotten core.
Edited by Nobody's Sock, Sep 20 2016, 03:28 PM.
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Copper
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There are at least a couple flawed assumptions here.

- Wealth is desirable.

- A small allocation of the US wealth isn't plenty.

At least one assumption that probably isn't flawed.

- A lot of people are selfish.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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George K
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People are mobile from group to group.

He does not define "wealth." Does that include property one owns, in addition to investments? Does it include one's pension? 401K?

He compares CEOs to Janitors. Is he aware the the average (not median) CEO earns about $178K?

He does not account for age distribution. The older folks, those with reasonable retirement plans have a significant amount of the "wealth." The younger people will not fit into that group because they have not had time to accumulate wealth.

"92% think it should be more equitable." Well, of course, those who are not in the top 20% feel they should have more. That's what he defines as "ideal".

In the first 40 seconds he says "skewed unfairly."

I'm out of darts for now...gotta eat some brats.
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Larry
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There's so much wrong in that video that it's worthless.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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kathyk
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I've seen that chart before, sans the video presentation. It's pretty shocking and there is no denying that wealth distribution, not only in the US but also globally has become totally out of whack.

George, I think we can safely assume that he's counting all of one's assets, which would be all real estate, 401Ks, stocks, bonds, cash, equity, etc. minus liabilities.

As far as CEOs, I don't believe he's making any assumption about CEO salaries. When he was listing professions, he was just giving examples of the types of people represented in the 100 people use in that particular graph.


The big take away here though is the graphic portrayal of how wealth distribution has become more skewed than ever before. This got me wondering exactly who the top 1% are. Not surprisingly, the skewing of recent years is largely a result of the finance industry - the same one that nearly brought our economy to its knees in 2007-8.

Quote:
 
investment bankers, corporate lawyers, hedge-fund and private-equity managers have displaced corporate executives at the top of the income ladder. In 2009 the richest 25 hedge-fund investors earned more than $25 billion, roughly six times as much as all the chief executives of companies in the S&P 500 stock index combined.

Who are the 1%?
Edited by kathyk, Sep 21 2016, 04:22 AM.
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Larry
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What does ones net worth need to be to be considered in the top 1%?

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Axtremus
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That video was made in 2012. Chances are good that the distribution of wealth is even less equitable now.
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Axtremus
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Larry
Sep 21 2016, 04:24 AM
What does ones net worth need to be to be considered in the top 1%?

On average, the household net worth of a top 1-percenter is around $16 million (based on 2012 data calculate using 2010 Dollar, see http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html )

Don't know where the cut off is to cross the top 1% line. I am guessing $5 million.
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Larry
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I wish I could take credit for this statement, but I can't. Someone else said it to me...

The problem with how liberals view income distribution is that they assume there is a finite amount of wealth that is to be distributed among everyone, and it never occurs to them that wealth can be created without taking any away from others.

Or something close to that..... lol

In other words - the problem with this guy's logic is that it's stupid.

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Mikhailoh
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That assumption went away with fiat currency.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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Mikhailoh
Sep 21 2016, 05:06 AM
That assumption went away with fiat currency.
It went away long before fiat currency was introduced. As soon as people started talking about love/family/friendship/faith as some sort of "wealth," they no longer assume that total wealth is a fixed quantity.
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George K
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Axtremus
Sep 21 2016, 04:36 AM
That video was made in 2012. Chances are good that the distribution of wealth is even less equitable now.
And yet, you posted a link showing how the middle class (finally) got an increase last year (we'll put away the increased costs of Obamacare for the sake of discussion).

The real question isn't whether the rich are rich, the question is are the 80%, 90% - whatever number you choose - any poorer.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Nobody's Sock
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I believe we are. Prices going up much faster than wages. Welcome to our austerity. More money in our hands can only help our economy. We know trickle down doesn't work, but if people had wages that were more than just enough to pay the bills, that money would get thrown back into the pot with spending. The rich horde it.
Edited by Nobody's Sock, Sep 21 2016, 05:48 AM.
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George K
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Nobody's Sock
Sep 21 2016, 05:45 AM
I believe we are. Prices going up much faster than wages. Welcome to our austerity. More money in our hands can only help our economy. We know trickle down doesn't work, but if people had wages that were more than just enough to pay the bills, that money would get thrown back into the pot with spending. The rich horde it.
Inflation has been historically low (that's what I've been told).

Wages are going up (that's what I've been told as well).

Who you gonna believe, the government or you own lying wallet?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Copper
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Axtremus
Sep 21 2016, 04:36 AM
That video was made in 2012. Chances are good that the distribution of wealth is even less equitable now.

But Obama!

What would be more equitable?

Should the ditch digger live in mansions while the movie star lives in a hovel?

Should burger flippers make millions while CEOs beg in the streets?

Big achievers should get the big rewards. That's generally how things work.

A few mistakes might slip through the cracks now and then but in general if you want lots of money all you have to do is do something that is worth lots of money.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Axtremus
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George K
Sep 21 2016, 05:15 AM
Axtremus
Sep 21 2016, 04:36 AM
That video was made in 2012. Chances are good that the distribution of wealth is even less equitable now.
And yet, you posted a link showing how the middle class (finally) got an increase last year ...
Those two are not necessarily in conflict. The "middle class got an increase" thing compares 2015 to 2014. The post you quoted above compares 2016 (now) to 2012 (when the video was made). It is entirely possible that wealth distribution is less equitable in 2016 than it was in 2012, and still have the middle class enjoy a 5%-ish bump to their median income going from 2014 to 2015.

The two things cover different scopes, different populations, different time spans, different metrics ("wealth" and "income," while related, are not the same thing).
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John Galt
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George K
Sep 21 2016, 05:15 AM
Axtremus
Sep 21 2016, 04:36 AM
That video was made in 2012. Chances are good that the distribution of wealth is even less equitable now.
And yet, you posted a link showing how the middle class (finally) got an increase last year (we'll put away the increased costs of Obamacare for the sake of discussion).

The real question isn't whether the rich are rich, the question is are the 80%, 90% - whatever number you choose - any poorer.
I think there's a bit of apples and oranges here. The middle class increase is not directly correlated to wealth distribution because:

1) The total amount of wealth is not fixed. Unlike energy, "wealth" can be created.

2) The 80%-90%-whateverpercent could have gotten an increase, and the remainingpercenters could have also gotten (a larger) increase, thereby changing the wealth distribution. Or some other combination.

3) Wealth is not the same as income.


I think the observation about the cost of health care is spot on and it isn't something that should be put aside in determining whether the whateverpercenters lot in life is better or worse.

(edit: Yes, I realize I am similarly all over the map. But I think you get the drift.)

Edited by John Galt, Sep 21 2016, 06:02 AM.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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George K
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:uparrow:

Excellent points. I omitted the cost of health insurance to help make the point. Almost half the country says their costs have increased over the last year.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Nobody's Sock
Sep 21 2016, 05:45 AM
I believe we are. Prices going up much faster than wages. Welcome to our austerity. More money in our hands can only help our economy. We know trickle down doesn't work, but if people had wages that were more than just enough to pay the bills, that money would get thrown back into the pot with spending. The rich horde it.
You say "trickle down" doesn't work, then in the very next sentence use trickle down to justify increasing pay rates. Then you claim the rich are "hording" money, which not only shows you don't know how money works, but also shows that you assume there's a set, finite amount of money.

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Aqua Letifer
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Nobody's Sock
Sep 20 2016, 03:18 PM
Capitalism has a rotten core.
Here's what I don't understand.

There are so many different ways of doing things, and in any other aspect of life we understand that certain jobs call for certain tools.

You use a cone wrench when you're working on hubs, but only hubs; if you're taking your wheel off, all you need is an adjustable spanner.

When you're designing a movie poster, it's a good idea to work in a collaborative environment. When you're storming some beach in the Middle East, what you want is top-down.

Everybody is already okay with socialized fire departments. That's not what they call them, but that's exactly what they are.

Why do we think that capitalism is the best system for everything we do? In many circumstances this makes exactly as much sense as trying to do a brake adjustment with a cone wrench or storming a beach by committee. Why is it so hard—especially because we already do this in other areas—to believe and admit that capitalism is not a good system for some things? Why can't we put it to use where it'd serve us best and use something else when needed?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Nobody's Sock
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George K
Sep 21 2016, 06:11 AM
:uparrow:

Excellent points. I omitted the cost of health insurance to help make the point. Almost half the country says their costs have increased over the last year.
I don't know about inflation rates, but let's just take a look at the price of things we pay for regularly. Groceries have gone way up in the past few years. Especially in this last year. I realize water drought had something to do with this, but look at produce. It used to be one of the cheap items we could all count on to be able to afford as much as we wanted. No longer. Look at beef. Crazy price hikes.
Let's look at our utilities. My electrical bill has doubled in the last few months. I had an 800 dollar bill last month!! I usually sit around $250 to $300.

My wages haven't budged in the last 5 years. Can't speak for everyone, but at least around my parts, I am not alone.
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Nobody's Sock
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Larry
Sep 21 2016, 06:25 AM
Nobody's Sock
Sep 21 2016, 05:45 AM
I believe we are. Prices going up much faster than wages. Welcome to our austerity. More money in our hands can only help our economy. We know trickle down doesn't work, but if people had wages that were more than just enough to pay the bills, that money would get thrown back into the pot with spending. The rich horde it.
You say "trickle down" doesn't work, then in the very next sentence use trickle down to justify increasing pay rates. Then you claim the rich are "hording" money, which not only shows you don't know how money works, but also shows that you assume there's a set, finite amount of money.

I don't assume there's a finite amount of money, and I never justified trickle down. I simply stated that if working class and poor had better wages than they currently do, that extra money wouldn't be socked under a mattress. It would be used to go eat out more often, see a movie, take a trip, live a little. IOW, stimulate our economy. The rich already do that and tuck the rest under the mattress.

I just don't get it. The right side , which includes many middle class and poor, will defend the uber rich to the death. There is a class warfare building whether you want to admit it or not. Things are going to get ugly if something isn't done.

I blame Reagan, and his tax cuts for the ubers. It's gone to hell ever since.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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Nobody's Sock
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Aqua Letifer
Sep 21 2016, 06:49 AM
Nobody's Sock
Sep 20 2016, 03:18 PM
Capitalism has a rotten core.
Here's what I don't understand.

There are so many different ways of doing things, and in any other aspect of life we understand that certain jobs call for certain tools.

You use a cone wrench when you're working on hubs, but only hubs; if you're taking your wheel off, all you need is an adjustable spanner.

When you're designing a movie poster, it's a good idea to work in a collaborative environment. When you're storming some beach in the Middle East, what you want is top-down.

Everybody is already okay with socialized fire departments. That's not what they call them, but that's exactly what they are.

Why do we think that capitalism is the best system for everything we do? In many circumstances this makes exactly as much sense as trying to do a brake adjustment with a cone wrench or storming a beach by committee. Why is it so hard—especially because we already do this in other areas—to believe and admit that capitalism is not a good system for some things? Why can't we put it to use where it'd serve us best and use something else when needed?
because the Right will use those two evil words as the only alternatives, "Socialism" , "Communism". The take their biggest brush and whitewash any alternative as pure evil.

Yes, our society is chock full of socialistic entities that are critical for our safety. Why is there no cry to eliminate all of them and privatize it? Because it would be plain stupid.

Capitalism has its merits but it needs a leash.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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Aqua Letifer
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Nobody's Sock
Sep 21 2016, 07:18 AM
I don't assume there's a finite amount of money, and I never justified trickle down. I simply stated that if working class and poor had better wages than they currently do, that extra money wouldn't be socked under a mattress. It would be used to go eat out more often, see a movie, take a trip, live a little. IOW, stimulate our economy. The rich already do that and tuck the rest under the mattress.
Diminishing returns on that, though. Give someone enough money to have those immediate wants met, and then he'll start socking away.

Quote:
 
I just don't get it. The right side , which includes many middle class and poor, will defend the uber rich to the death. There is a class warfare building whether you want to admit it or not. Things are going to get ugly if something isn't done.


I think it's just the Puritanical "worth through work" idea, and the presumption that because you're a business owner, you work your ass off for everything you have. In a lot of areas in America, there's a seriously over-inflated sense of honor in owning your own business, just like in other areas there's a sense of honor in being put upon by the White Man. Just a strong narrative some people like to buy into.

There's also a lot of weird self-identification going on. Guys like Trump come out and say "like you, I'm a business owner, and so you and I both understand that Hillary Clinton is bad for businesses like ours" and people don't even question the premise. They actually believe that their corner store in Dubuque is just like The Trump Organization. They actually think that Trump's interests are the same as theirs.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Nobody's Sock
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Aqua Letifer
Sep 21 2016, 07:26 AM
Nobody's Sock
Sep 21 2016, 07:18 AM
I don't assume there's a finite amount of money, and I never justified trickle down. I simply stated that if working class and poor had better wages than they currently do, that extra money wouldn't be socked under a mattress. It would be used to go eat out more often, see a movie, take a trip, live a little. IOW, stimulate our economy. The rich already do that and tuck the rest under the mattress.
Diminishing returns on that, though. Give someone enough money to have those immediate wants met, and then he'll start socking away.

Quote:
 
I just don't get it. The right side , which includes many middle class and poor, will defend the uber rich to the death. There is a class warfare building whether you want to admit it or not. Things are going to get ugly if something isn't done.


I think it's just the Puritanical "worth through work" idea, and the presumption that because you're a business owner, you work your ass off for everything you have. In a lot of areas in America, there's a seriously over-inflated sense of honor in owning your own business, just like in other areas there's a sense of honor in being put upon by the White Man. Just a strong narrative some people like to buy into.

There's also a lot of weird self-identification going on. Guys like Trump come out and say "like you, I'm a business owner, and so you and I both understand that Hillary Clinton is bad for businesses like ours" and people don't even question the premise. They actually believe that their corner store in Dubuque is just like The Trump Organization. They actually think that Trump's interests are the same as theirs.
you have too much faith in the savings ability of the regular joe. lol!

I don't believe the returns would diminish much at all. We Americans are not the ant. We are the grasshopper!
Edited by Nobody's Sock, Sep 21 2016, 07:39 AM.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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