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How American are you
Topic Started: Sep 14 2016, 07:42 AM (571 Views)
Catseye
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John D'Oh
Sep 14 2016, 11:12 AM
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the other group is the instant citizen, who acquire citizenship for the benefits and without any interest in contributing as citizens.


By 'instant citizen', do you mean naturalized American? There's a test that's given as part of the citizenship application. I suspect quite a few natural-born Americans wouldn't pass.
Indeed, I have no doubt.

I have a memory -- maybe you were here then, too -- from many years ago, of a stadium full of other-than-Americans being sworn in as citizens, somewhere in Texas. Sponsored by Democrats. It has always bothered me.

My stepmother was a naturalized American. She was very meticulous about learning the material, but AFAIK after her swearing-in she never again gave a thought to any of it.

Edited by Catseye, Sep 14 2016, 11:20 AM.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Mikhailoh
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John D'Oh
Sep 14 2016, 11:01 AM
You two are making a career out of complaining about people who complain a lot.

I'm going to complain about you.
Don't forget, you are in the Basket of Deportables, infidel.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Aqua Letifer
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Catseye
Sep 14 2016, 11:20 AM
It has always bothered me.
Why?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Catseye
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Aqua Letifer
Sep 14 2016, 12:47 PM
Catseye
Sep 14 2016, 11:20 AM
It has always bothered me.
Why?
A mass swearing-in? How would you monitor how well they passed whatever tests they took, or whatever other scrutiny that is applied? It could be done, I guess, but why bother with the stadium thing at all if you must scrutinize individually anyway?

This was a long time ago, but I think there wasn't any mention of proper audit.

And when I say "bothered me" I mean in the sense of not having the answers to the above. I didn't assume anything. At least, I don't think I did.

Plus, where's the solemnity, or the excitement or the specialness of such an event, when it's you and 10,000 others?
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Aqua Letifer
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mass swearing-in? How would you monitor how well they passed whatever tests they took, or whatever other scrutiny that is applied? It could be done, I guess, but why bother with the stadium thing at all if you must scrutinize individually anyway?


I think they'd probably do it the way you, y'know, get into stadiums. With passes, scrutinized individually. Don't know why they chose to do it that way but your fear of foreign hoboes sneaking in and getting nationalized is a total non-issue.

Quote:
 
Plus, where's the solemnity, or the excitement or the specialness of such an event, when it's you and 10,000 others?


Holy shit you really don't go to a lot of stadium events, do you? :lol:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Rainman
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Catseye:
My stepmother was a naturalized American. She was very meticulous about learning the material, but AFAIK after her swearing-in she never again gave a thought to any of it.

Kind of like a high school diploma? Means a lot, for a few weeks.
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Catseye
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Holy **** you really don't go to a lot of stadium events, do you?


Not to be sworn in as a citizen of that stadium's nation, no.

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. . . but your fear of foreign hoboes sneaking in and getting nationalized is a total non-issue.


Unlike your tendency to fabricate fairy tales out of whole cloth in what you read. Where in the fvck do you get "fear" and "hoboes" and "sneaking in to get nationalized? Are you high?

"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Larry
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I have no idea where this topic is headed, but as far as I'm concerned all you honkies can get on the next ship out, and take the africans you brought over here with you.












Who'd I miss........ :D
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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Catseye
Sep 14 2016, 03:57 PM
Quote:
 
Holy **** you really don't go to a lot of stadium events, do you?


Not to be sworn in as a citizen of that stadium's nation, no.

Quote:
 
. . . but your fear of foreign hoboes sneaking in and getting nationalized is a total non-issue.


Unlike your tendency to fabricate fairy tales out of whole cloth in what you read. Where in the fvck do you get "fear" and "hoboes" and "sneaking in to get nationalized? Are you high?

It would be a really good job if I were. :lol:

Do you fabricate fairy tales out of whole cloth at the Department of Redundancy Department?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Catseye
Sep 14 2016, 11:20 AM
John D'Oh
Sep 14 2016, 11:12 AM
Quote:
 
the other group is the instant citizen, who acquire citizenship for the benefits and without any interest in contributing as citizens.


By 'instant citizen', do you mean naturalized American? There's a test that's given as part of the citizenship application. I suspect quite a few natural-born Americans wouldn't pass.
Indeed, I have no doubt.

I have a memory -- maybe you were here then, too -- from many years ago, of a stadium full of other-than-Americans being sworn in as citizens, somewhere in Texas. Sponsored by Democrats. It has always bothered me.

My stepmother was a naturalized American. She was very meticulous about learning the material, but AFAIK after her swearing-in she never again gave a thought to any of it.

What I meant was, are you saying that naturalized Americans need to answer additional questions to natural-born Americans if they wish to vote?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Catseye
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John D'Oh
Sep 15 2016, 03:41 AM
Catseye
Sep 14 2016, 11:20 AM
John D'Oh
Sep 14 2016, 11:12 AM
Quote:
 
the other group is the instant citizen, who acquire citizenship for the benefits and without any interest in contributing as citizens.


By 'instant citizen', do you mean naturalized American? There's a test that's given as part of the citizenship application. I suspect quite a few natural-born Americans wouldn't pass.
Indeed, I have no doubt.

I have a memory -- maybe you were here then, too -- from many years ago, of a stadium full of other-than-Americans being sworn in as citizens, somewhere in Texas. Sponsored by Democrats. It has always bothered me.

My stepmother was a naturalized American. She was very meticulous about learning the material, but AFAIK after her swearing-in she never again gave a thought to any of it.

What I meant was, are you saying that naturalized Americans need to answer additional questions to natural-born Americans if they wish to vote?
No, I wouldn't say so. That doesn't seem fair. Citizen is citizen, yes?
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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John D'Oh
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The obvious problem with this kind of test is it's going to further disenfranchise people who are already on the fringes.

Sure, it would be nice if everybody was lovely and middle class and did charity work and respected free speech and shared our values. Telling people they can't vote because they never learned to read and write and watch reality TV rather than NPR is hardly going to encourage them to take part. It's going to make them despise us.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Immigrants applying for citizenship are asked questions that people born here should have learned the answers to in grade school.

That said, in grade school everyone is taught that Christopher Columbus discovered America, so they need reeducated too....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Catseye
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John D'Oh
Sep 15 2016, 04:49 AM
The obvious problem with this kind of test is it's going to further disenfranchise people who are already on the fringes.

Sure, it would be nice if everybody was lovely and middle class and did charity work and respected free speech and shared our values. Telling people they can't vote because they never learned to read and write and watch reality TV rather than NPR is hardly going to encourage them to take part. It's going to make them despise us.

I can't help that.

I don't need everybody to be middle class and do charity work. I don't care about their values, either. They don't have to be political science gurus. They just have to know what voting is, what it means, what are the implications of the choices they make -- and not even a lot of the latter; I'd be satisfied if they could do a 20-second riff on why they voted as they did, so long as it showed some degree of conscious, thoughtful understanding.

How can a country function well if its populace is uneducated? We are reaping the results of dullness and apathy. I fear we are getting the leaders we deserve.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
If people were required to be capable of showing an ability to thoughtfully understand why they voted the way they did, it would certainly reduce the size of the democrat vote...
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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Larry
Sep 15 2016, 04:58 AM
That said, in grade school everyone is taught that Christopher Columbus discovered America, so they need reeducated too....
They also teach that the Pilgrims came to American in search of religious freedom, which was actually the last thing they wanted.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Catseye
Sep 15 2016, 05:01 AM
How can a country function well if its populace is uneducated? We are reaping the results of dullness and apathy. I fear we are getting the leaders we deserve.
Boy, the founding fathers sure overlooked this big time when they failed to include "providing education" as a Constitutional governmental function. Tsk tsk tsk. :tsktsk:
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Catseye
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Axtremus
Sep 15 2016, 06:39 AM
Catseye
Sep 15 2016, 05:01 AM
How can a country function well if its populace is uneducated? We are reaping the results of dullness and apathy. I fear we are getting the leaders we deserve.
Boy, the founding fathers sure overlooked this big time when they failed to include "providing education" as a Constitutional governmental function. Tsk tsk tsk. :tsktsk:
They "failed" to include a lot of things in the Constitution. Read it.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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John D'Oh
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Literacy tests for voting rights as used in the past are the thin end of a very nasty wedge.

I think I'd rather have everybody allowed to vote than start making up rules based on being able to pass a test. Just because people are ignorant doesn't mean they shouldn't have rights, and moving away from that fundamental assumption is likely to lead to some very unpleasant things. For example, how about testing before allowing people to breed? Raising children is a much bigger responsibility than a simple vote, but there's no test for fitness, and for good reason. I don't think I'm exaggerating by suggesting that this is a road that could lead to fascism.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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John D'Oh
Sep 15 2016, 07:14 AM
Literacy tests for voting rights as used in the past are the thin end of a very nasty wedge.

I think I'd rather have everybody allowed to vote than start making up rules based on being able to pass a test. Just because people are ignorant doesn't mean they shouldn't have rights, and moving away from that fundamental assumption is likely to lead to some very unpleasant things. For example, how about testing before allowing people to breed? Raising children is a much bigger responsibility than a simple vote, but there's no test for fitness, and for good reason. I don't think I'm exaggerating by suggesting that this is a road that could lead to fascism.
History bears that out pretty much all over the place.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Also, who makes the call about what is considered an appropriate level of being informed?

Sure, we all sit around here jabbering away and assuming we all know what we're talking about. What if the people who make this decision consider us, with some justification, to be a bunch of morons? There are certainly a lot smarter and better informed people than me around - just ask anyone who's met me.

An idiot is somebody who doesn't know as much as I do. A genius is somebody who thinks I'm an idiot.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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John D'Oh
Sep 15 2016, 07:20 AM
Also, who makes the call about what is considered an appropriate level of being informed?
The people who'd advocate for the test of course!

David Foster Wallace had a once-in-a-generation kind of mind. And he considered his biggest asset as a writer and person to be the belief that in every way that matters, he was just like everybody else. It's hard for me to follow suit because I feel let down by people a lot of the time, but getting too wrapped up in that leads to the kind of self-important delusions that make you stupid.

It's foolish to think you've got it all figured out and that most people are morons who don't.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Catseye
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John D'Oh
Sep 15 2016, 07:20 AM
Also, who makes the call about what is considered an appropriate level of being informed?

Sure, we all sit around here jabbering away and assuming we all know what we're talking about. What if the people who make this decision consider us, with some justification, to be a bunch of morons? There are certainly a lot smarter and better informed people than me around - just ask anyone who's met me.

An idiot is somebody who doesn't know as much as I do. A genius is somebody who thinks I'm an idiot.

The kind of informedness (?word?) that I'm thinking of is one of a very low standard.

NPP's test yesterday contained the question, What are the three branches of government? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone who votes to know the answer to that question, for example. Mostly I would like to see voters have even a low level of awareness of the world around them; of interest and caring. Who is the current Vice President? How many states are there? Where is the Statue of Liberty located? That kind of thing. Any more than that, and you're right, the thing turns into a brouhaha of scholars and historians and god knows who, not to mention who would have the right to design such a test -- you're right, that is alarming.

Nothing remotely near fascism. Of course, this is all pointless because it would never come to fruition, anyway.

Here is an example of a dumb way to vote: I always vote the same as my husband. Here's another one: I couldn't vote that day because I was drunk.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
You have to know how to drive too. I would submit that uninformed voting is infinitely more dangerous.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
I can support requiring voter literacy testing as long as I am the one specifying the test questions, corresponding answers, and grading standard for such testing. :devilgrin:
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