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Did Disney do enough to warn...
Topic Started: Jun 16 2016, 03:27 PM (505 Views)
George K
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Finally
Did Disney do enough to warn its guest about alligators?

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A toddler was dragged into a lake at Disney's Grand Floridian Resort and Spa by an alligator after dark on June 14. Orlando officials scoured the lagoon and recovered the boy's body June 15. (The Washington Post)

The snatching of a 2-year-old boy by an alligator from a beach at a Disney resort Tuesday night immediately raised questions about the animal’s behavior and the company’s responsibility.

Among them: How common are alligators in the lagoon where the attack happened? Did Disney do enough to mitigate the problem or warn tourists about potential dangers? If not, could the resort be held legally liable for the toddler’s death?

There’s no doubt that alligators are a fixture of the Florida landscape.

According to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, there are an estimated 1.3 million alligators in the state. The agency regularly warns visitors that Florida is teeming with wildlife and that visitors should tread carefully. In addition, the Florida Department of Environmental Protection posts warning signs that alligators are present near designated swimming areas and walkways in state parks.

But Tuesday’s fatal attack took place along a well-tended beach by the man-made Seven Seas Lagoon, outside the upscale Grand Floridian Resort & Spa. The boy, Lane Graves, on vacation with his family from Nebraska, apparently had waded inches into the water when the alligator attacked. There were no other people in the water at the time, according to authorities. Signs posted near the lake warn against swimming in it, but the resort did not have signage warning of alligators in the water. The company will “thoroughly review the situation for the future,” according to a Disney official.

Officials told reporters that, according to records, this was the first alligator attack at Disney World in its nearly a half century of operations. Nick Wiley, executive director of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, said the agency works closely with the theme park to remove any “nuisance alligators,” or gators that are at least four feet in length and could pose a threat to people, pets or property.

However, Wiley didn’t know how often his agency actually removes nuisance gators from the park, and he wasn’t able to provide an estimate for how many live in the waters on Disney property. A local sheriff said there had been no recent reports of any nuisance alligators in the area, but questions about their presence in the lake will be part of the ongoing investigation.

“There isn’t a waterway in Florida that doesn’t have an alligator in it,” said Kenneth Krysko, herpetology collections manager at the Florida Museum of Natural History and an expert on the state’s alligators and crocodiles.

The mating season, which Krysko said just ended, is when most attacks occur. Big males become very territorial, and smaller males like the one suspected of taking the 2-year-old scatter to smaller bodies of water to feed. The hour of the attack, about 9 p.m., is an optimal time for feeding. “Yes, that is the time of day that alligators are coming out and feeding. People are at the surface, splashing around. It’s just so sad because you have a 2-year-old, which is very small. A four-to-six-foot alligator can view that as prey. An animal would have no problem getting such a child.”

Krysko wondered whether the alligator in Tuesday’s attack, unlike most, had no fear of humans. He suspects that visiting tourists might have been feeding it. “That’s the big problem. It loses its natural fear of humans when that happens. It goes up to humans, sees a child, and that’s the first thing it takes. That’s the sole reason why it’s illegal to feed an alligator in the wild.”

Floridians are extremely wary of alligators, for the most part. The danger is so ingrained in the general public that many small bodies of water lack posted warnings. “Early morning or late evening, you don’t go messing around on a shoreline with vegetation because of alligators,” Krysko said.

Frank Mazzotti, a professor of wildlife ecology at University of Florida, said the fact that the Disney lagoon was man-made matters little. Alligators pop up constantly in man-made canals, golf course lakes and retention ponds that dot the state. “It’s really impossible to keep them out of any body of water,” Mazzotti said.

Mazzotti noted that Florida has a “first-class” nuisance program that will help businesses or citizens remove or relocate alligators that behave in a threatening manner. “The success of that is reflected in how rare these events are,” he said. “What this comes down to is the fact that as much as we might like to — and especially for our children — we cannot totally remove risk from life…. Something like this is likely no one’s fault…. This is bad luck, unfortunate circumstances.”

But who is at fault will likely become a central question after the initial shock of the tragedy begins to fade.

Alan Sykes, a professor at Stanford Law School, said the Walt Disney Co. could be held liable for the incident if there is proof of negligence.

“The hotel owes a duty of care to its customers to take reasonable measures to make the premises safe,” said Sykes, who stressed that he didn’t know all the details about the incident in Orlando. “That would include if there are hidden hazards in a lagoon on the hotel property.”

He said a key question would be whether the resort had prior knowledge of alligators in the water near the hotel and what it had done to mitigate that issue, or at least adequately warn tourists of the potential dangers. “A simple ‘no swimming’ sign might be deemed insufficient,” he said. “If it gets litigated, it’s most likely a case about reasonable warning.”

Whatever the particulars, Sykes said the case is almost certain to attract the attention of lawyers seeking to sue the resort.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if Disney ends up settling this, even if they have some decent legal argument,” he said. “It’s a black eye on the Disney resort.”

Matt Morgan, an Orlando attorney who has litigated numerous negligence cases against Florida theme parks, agreed that any case would turn on a couple central questions. “What did Disney know about the presence of alligators and when did they know it? What protections were in place for these visitors?” he said. “If Disney knew and did not take steps to warn visitors, they could be liable.”

Morgan said his observation that the lake is lined like a sandy beach with chairs and umbrellas shows that visitors were welcome on the shore. The argument one could anticipate Disney making is that the presence of alligators in Florida’s fresh waters is well known, he said. The counterargument “is this family from out of state that comes to Disney World assumes that Disney has taken every measure to protect them and their family, and could not in their wildest nightmare imagine that there was an alligator large enough to take their son.”

Disney officials did not immediately reply to a request for comment on potential liability issues.

On Wednesday, those questions took a back seat to the search for the body of a 2-year-old boy and concerns for his grieving parents, whose vacation to the Magic Kingdom had swiftly turned into a nightmare. Disney closed its beach areas and recreational marinas, although the nearby theme parks remained open Wednesday. Authorities said trappers had caught and euthanized four alligators overnight but had not yet found any evidence that those animals were responsible for snatching the boy. They later investigated a fifth alligator.

“This is a very human experience we’re talking about. We’re dealing with this family who, there’s no question, will lose a 2-year-old child,” Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demings, himself the grandfather of a 2-year-old boy, told reporters. “Our ultimate goal is to try and bring some closure to this family by bringing home their loved one.”

Later Wednesday, divers found the boy’s body under about six feet of water, close to where he was last seen. Authorities said the body was intact and that he had apparently drowned.
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Copper
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Quote:
 
“There isn’t a waterway in Florida that doesn’t have an alligator in it,”


One of the first thoughts you might have is that this will cost Disney a bundle.

I saw one story today that said that Disney might not settle for the above reason. I guess that means this is part of the accepted risk when you go to Florida.


The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Luke's Dad
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Unfortunately for Disney, several employees have been warning them about putting up a fence on that particular lake and beach as Gators were getting more aggressive. It turns out that as part of the Floridian, they have built Bungalows over the water, and employees have repeatedly seen guests feeding the Gators despite warnings and requests. The feeding creates three problems, it causes more gators to come to that area, it eliminates the Gators fear of humans, and it teaches them to associate people with food.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Luke's Dad
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/gator-attack-disney-knew-problems-staffer-asked-fence-035825581.html
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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George K
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Luke's Dad
Jun 16 2016, 04:09 PM
That's gonna leave a mark...
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- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Copper
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That's pretty bad. I have stayed in that hotel and whenever we are in the area we have made a point of having at least one meal there. I've probably made a couple dozen visits there over the years.

I don't think I have ever heard any mention of an alligator. Maybe Disney has slipped but that is the kind of thing where they always seemed to be up front and ahead of it. Having to play catch-up here is really bad.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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jon-nyc
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This isn't even close. The custodian of the property has been in the papers describing how he's been warning management about the gator problem.

And the signs? A joke. 'No Swimming' doesn't mean 'WARNING: ALLIGATORS. KEEP CHILDREN AWAY'. It doesn't even mean 'no wading up to your shins'.

They built the lagoon. They built a beach. They created a waterside attraction and marketed it to the world. Not just floridians that know there are gators everywhere. And this is Disney, ferchrissakes. Every inch of their resort is curated and designed.

And this isn't the first time. Disney had a gator attack on a boy in 1986. They settled then.


They are toast. They will be lucky if they keep the settlement below 8 figures.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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jon-nyc
Jun 16 2016, 05:24 PM
Disney had a gator attack on a boy in 1986. They settled then.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacked-alligator-1986-disney-tragedy-not-article-1.2676459
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
In some of the lakes in Florida--especially the ones near homes the homeowners association pays gator trappers to remove anything larger than a foot. It's and ongoing procedure but it keeps the risk to a minimum. I wonder why Disney doesn't do something similar.
Edited by TomK, Jun 16 2016, 06:34 PM.
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Copper
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Maybe Disney has cut back on maintenance in general. This will cost a lot more than the settlement with the family.

Maybe they should just pave over the lakes and paint them blue.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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George K
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Copper
Jun 16 2016, 06:30 PM
Maybe they should just pave over the lakes and paint them blue.
Works for me...
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Jun 16 2016, 06:30 PM
Maybe Disney has cut back on maintenance in general. This will cost a lot more than the settlement with the family.

Maybe they should just pave over the lakes and paint them blue.
Signage cautioning people that alligators may be present would have been a damn site cheaper than any of the above.
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Luke's Dad
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jon-nyc
Jun 16 2016, 05:24 PM
This isn't even close. The custodian of the property has been in the papers describing how he's been warning management about the gator problem.

And the signs? A joke. 'No Swimming' doesn't mean 'WARNING: ALLIGATORS. KEEP CHILDREN AWAY'. It doesn't even mean 'no wading up to your shins'.

They built the lagoon. They built a beach. They created a waterside attraction and marketed it to the world. Not just floridians that know there are gators everywhere. And this is Disney, ferchrissakes. Every inch of their resort is curated and designed.

And this isn't the first time. Disney had a gator attack on a boy in 1986. They settled then.


They are toast. They will be lucky if they keep the settlement below 8 figures.
2.2 Billion in annual profits for the Theme Parks alone. They can afford it.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
I'd suggest Disney stay within their theme park parameters.

Post their typical sign everyone is familiar with at their theme parks, perhaps adding some modification:

NOTICE: Anyone under 48 inches...COULD BE EATEN BY AN ALLIGATOR!!!

(my callous comment above as a gallow-humor joke...but to be serious it's just horrible what happened)
(and, in my view, Disney is responsible for this tragedy)
(not clear?, let me restate: f**k Disney for not preventing this)
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jon-nyc
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Wikipedia notes that the original name of the place was Grand Floridian Beach Resort. The beach and lagoon were not just incidental to the place, the beach attraction was central to the concept.

The place opened in 1988. Note that the other boy was attacked by the gator on their property in 1986. so right about the time they settled with the other family for inadequate warning about alligators, they opened a resort centered on the concept of a beach on a man-made lake with no warning signs.

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
jon-nyc
Jun 16 2016, 05:24 PM
This isn't even close. The custodian of the property has been in the papers describing how he's been warning management about the gator problem.

And the signs? A joke. 'No Swimming' doesn't mean 'WARNING: ALLIGATORS. KEEP CHILDREN AWAY'. It doesn't even mean 'no wading up to your shins'.
This sounds a lot like criminal negligence.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
No lawsuit. I wonder how much Disney's contribution to the Lane Foundation was?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/20/broken-parents-wont-sue-disney-over-the-alligator-attack-that-left-their-toddler-dead/?utm_term=.a6b987ff91e9
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I'm not sure I'd have the energy to sue in their situation. The money's not really going to help, and having to go through a long lawsuit would be incredibly difficult.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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