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Bring in the refugees!
Topic Started: Jan 5 2016, 03:26 PM (4,612 Views)
George K
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Finally
500 Unwanted "Guests" Stormed Nightclub in Bielefeld, Germany.

Why, it's almost as though there was a plan.

Quote:
 
NB – This is the Google translation of an article published today in Germany’s Focus Online. The “Refugee” problem is far more severe than previously reported.

500 men forced their way into a disco – riots in New Year’s Eve in Bielefeld more severe than previously known

The riots in the New Year’s Eve in the new station district in Bielefeld have been obviously heavier than previously known. 500 men allegedly entered the New Year several times by force in a disco. There were several reports of sexual assaults.

The chief of security of the “Elephant Club” reported in Bielefeld “Westfalen-Blatt” on Saturday of up to 500 men who wanted to multiply access to the disco with violence. Women have been touched in the genital area. “Only by using physical violence, we could help women to break free.”


Klaus, what's the mood in Germany these days?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Nah, can't be anything planned. Individually, they're all nice people, you know...
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Moonbat
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Again, that is not the question. For crying out loud, everyone, and I mean everyone, knows the right thing to do in terms of humanitarian aid

But if that were true then there would be no attempt to draw significance to the events in Cologne. There would not be the dramatic focus on supposed negative social consequences of immigration. And there would be no banging the drum about the evils of that faceless and homogenous group of people known as 'muslims'. And yet there is.

Quote:
 
The question is can it be done?

How much does it cost? In terms of money, time, people and harm to existing systems, how much?

Can we afford it?


We can always afford it, though sometimes there is a question of what if anything we would have to give up in order to do so. So the real question is whether the harm of taking such action outweighs the harm of not doing so. And the answer to that is trivial. The answer to that question (when it comes to crisis involving large numbers of people) is always trivial.

The thing is the reason we don't see that it's trivial is because we don't weigh harm equally. We weight harm to us and our immediate family by many many orders of magnitude more than harm to anyone else and then we weight harm done to people we actually know (but are not family) and then we weight harm done to those we deem 'similar' to us in some abstract tribal sense and finally down on the lowest rung of consideration ladder we weight harm done to those we deem 'different'. We also spectacularly fail to deal with numbers. The total awfulness of human beings coping with numbers is difficult to overstate. When we hear about 100,000 refugees or say 12 million refugees it makes no difference to us. We are unable to comprehend these kinds of numbers so they get all smudged together into some kind generic picture of crisis. And then this generic category becomes less and less significant as we become over exposed to images of crisis in the media, until it's just another headline that we read on our way to work, and we care more about having milk in our coffee than the lives others. That's what it is to be human. To have a Homo Sapien brain.

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There is certainly not a soul here who needs your preachy cut/paste to understand the problem.

They are just the stories some of the refugees. Real stories of real people. You don't think anyone needs them? I don't agree I think we all need them. (Because of the Homo Sapien brain thing)

As for this true humanitarian stuff. I'm not claiming to be a humanitarian Copper true or otherwise, I'm not doing a damn thing for the refugees. I'm not lifting a finger to help them. I'm not trying to claim moral high ground - I'm doing what I always do engaging in the battle of ideas.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Rainman
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Moonbat, you lectured and pointed out your assessment regarding what our (1st-world) responsibilities are. OK, fine.

I would be interested to hear your lecture to the refugees/migrants on what their responsibilities are.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rainman
Jan 10 2016, 12:02 PM
I would be interested to hear your lecture to the refugees/migrants on what their responsibilities are.
I'll take a stab at it:

1. Obey the laws of the host host country
2. Respect the norms and customs of the host country
3. As soon as they are able and permitted to by the host country, become productive members of society in the host country
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Copper
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Moonbat
Jan 10 2016, 11:37 AM

We can always afford it, though sometimes there is a question of what if anything we would have to give up in order to do so. So the real question is whether the harm of taking such action outweighs the harm of not doing so. And the answer to that is trivial. The answer to that question (when it comes to crisis involving large numbers of people) is always trivial.

The thing is the reason we don't see that it's trivial is because we don't weigh harm equally.

There are consequences for everything not just pocketbooks and personal safety.

You can't deal with an unlimited number of animals however small the percentage that are animals might be.

You can have extra police to bust their heads and lock them up or maybe you can have etiquette teachers to teach them how to behave in polite society or maybe some combination.

But you can't just say the door is open to unlimited numbers, even if it makes you feel good.

There has to be some real plan to deal with them.

By the way, this is the same kind of thinking that doomed obamacare from the beginning. There was this idea that we could provide unlimited healthcare to everyone for free. There is still no plan to train and employ however many new doctors it takes to care for 11 million new healthcare consumers. The result is higher costs paid by those who can afford it and no real healthcare provided to those who need it - a loss for everyone involved.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Moonbat
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You can't deal with an unlimited number of animals however small the percentage that are animals might be.

Unlimited is irrelevant - there are a finite number of humans on Earth.

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You can have extra police to bust their heads and lock them up or maybe you can have etiquette teachers to teach them how to behave in polite society or maybe some combination.

Sure it costs money to train more police, but then you'll have greater economic output anyway - don't migrants traditionally boost the economy? Of course you don't actually have to pay more police. You could just accept a higher crime rate. Like I said it's about balancing harm.

Quote:
 
But you can't just say the door is open to unlimited numbers.

Fortunately you never have to because there are not unlimited numbers.

Quote:
 
There has to be some real plan to deal with them.

Was there an elaborate plan for dealing with all the Jews fleeing Nazi Germany? Clearly there is no requirement for a plan. Granted in order to assess what action to take you need to have some overview of likely outcomes but the maximum utility calculation looks so ridiculously lop-sided in these kinds of situations that the answer is trivial.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Catseye
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Moonbat. You're thinking too hard. You're concentrating so hard on refuting everything Copper and others have said that you're starting to contradict your ownself. :)

I'm just ducking in here; you can comment on this if you like, but I've said all I want to on the subject. I just think you should maybe lie on a beach -- if you're below the Equator -- or on a couch, and let your true beliefs flow in, whatever they may be. It's too easy to get all tangled up until you don't know what to think. I say that as one who has been there.

Just a friendly word.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Rainman
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Quote:
 
Axtremus:
I'll take a stab at it:

1. Obey the laws of the host host country
2. Respect the norms and customs of the host country
3. As soon as they are able and permitted to by the host country, become productive members of society in the host country


Thanks, Ax. I'm curious: if you focus upon Germany and the 1,000,000+ refugees/migrants of 2015, what percentage do you think agree with your list, what percentage have no intent, desire, or ability to follow your basic requirements.

BTW - I'm not trying to set you up for an argument. I think your basic list if fine. I agree. But, the old adage applies, "you can lead a horse to water, but. . . "
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Copper
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Moonbat
Jan 10 2016, 12:28 PM

Fortunately you never have to because there are not unlimited numbers.

Of course there unlimited numbers because there are no limits under consideration.

What are the limits?

Are we over or under the limits?
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Moonbat
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Catseye
Jan 10 2016, 12:45 PM
Moonbat. You're thinking too hard. You're concentrating so hard on refuting everything Copper and others have said that you're starting to contradict your ownself. :)

I'm just ducking in here; you can comment on this if you like, but I've said all I want to on the subject. I just think you should maybe lie on a beach -- if you're below the Equator -- or on a couch, and let your true beliefs flow in, whatever they may be. It's too easy to get all tangled up until you don't know what to think. I say that as one who has been there.

Just a friendly word.
Hey Catseye, what did I say that was a contradiction? - perhaps I have explained myself poorly - wouldn't be the first time. I don't really agree with letting beliefs flow in. I think we have to work quite hard to avoid getting intuitive wrong answers.

Best wishes.

Mb

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Jan 8 2016, 09:24 AM
We should not demonize those who are the most in need simply because of the actions of a very small minority. You can always find bad people, bad Americans, bad English, bad French, bad Spanish, bad, white people, bad brown people, bad computer programmers, bad accountants, bad managers, bad clowns, bad Christians, bad atheists, bad Muslims, bad anyone and everyone. The identification of a small subset of group X who do bad things is of no consequence or significance.

4.4 million people have lost their homes due to a civil war not of their making, half are children, that is a real tragedy. We do well to focus on the 4.4 million innocents not on the 100 guilty.

Far greater harm will come to far greater numbers of innocent people if we simply abandon the victims of the Syrian civil war (a civil war our governments freaking fueled!) just because a tiny minority turn out to be bad apples.
Moonbat, that is the most Christian post on this whole thread. (I meant that as a complement not as an instult. :ohmy: )
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Moonbat
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Copper
Jan 10 2016, 01:22 PM
Moonbat
Jan 10 2016, 12:28 PM

Fortunately you never have to because there are not unlimited numbers.

Of course there unlimited numbers because there are no limits under consideration.

What are the limits?

Are we over or under the limits?
4 million refugees is a finite number of refugees.

If you want me to do some calculations I can do them (if I can find time) but what point are you trying to make? What cost would you accept? Would you be happier if there was a figure - no matter what the figure actually was?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Copper
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Moonbat
Jan 10 2016, 01:40 PM
Copper
Jan 10 2016, 01:22 PM
Moonbat
Jan 10 2016, 12:28 PM

Fortunately you never have to because there are not unlimited numbers.

Of course there unlimited numbers because there are no limits under consideration.

What are the limits?

Are we over or under the limits?
4 million refugees is a finite number of refugees.

If you want me to do some calculations I can do them (if I can find time) but what point are you trying to make? What cost would you accept? Would you be happier if there was a figure - no matter what the figure actually was?

The question is what are the limits?

Money is the simple and obvious one.

What about all the systems needed to support these new residents?

How many new police, fire, healthcare, housing, education, administrative and other people are needed? How long will it take to get them? How much food is needed? How long will it take to grow this food?

Money is a consideration but you can just blow that off like the magic obamacare money.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rainman
Jan 10 2016, 12:55 PM
Quote:
 
Axtremus:
I'll take a stab at it:

1. Obey the laws of the host host country
2. Respect the norms and customs of the host country
3. As soon as they are able and permitted to by the host country, become productive members of society in the host country


Thanks, Ax. I'm curious: if you focus upon Germany and the 1,000,000+ refugees/migrants of 2015, what percentage do you think agree with your list, what percentage have no intent, desire, or ability to follow your basic requirements.

BTW - I'm not trying to set you up for an argument. I think your basic list if fine. I agree. But, the old adage applies, "you can lead a horse to water, but. . . "
...if he doesn't drink, you can always sit on his head and drown his arse...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 
The question is what are the limits?

Money is the simple and obvious one.

What about all the systems needed to support these new residents?

How many new police, fire, healthcare, housing, education, administrative and other people are needed? How long will it take to get them? How much food is needed? How long will it take to grow this food?

Money is a consideration but you can just blow that off like the magic obamacare money.


Well I guess a base estimate is to just multiple the services by the change in population.

Germany has 296 police men per 100,000 so if they want to keep the same ratio they'd end up hiring 2960 policemen. Of course that doesn't have to happen immediately. If Germany don't hire any extra police they'll go from 296 per hundred thousand to 292 per hundred thousand. (The UK has 227 police men per 100,000, France has 356. Source.. The beautiful thing about states being inefficient is that it means they have redundancy built into them.

If the 4 million refugees were distributed amongst Europe and the US you would be adding 4 million people to a prexisting population of 743 + 318 (google) = 1.061 billion people. That equates to population change of 0.4%. You think that's going to cause social and economic collapse?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Moonbat
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TomK
Jan 10 2016, 01:31 PM
Moonbat
Jan 8 2016, 09:24 AM
We should not demonize those who are the most in need simply because of the actions of a very small minority. You can always find bad people, bad Americans, bad English, bad French, bad Spanish, bad, white people, bad brown people, bad computer programmers, bad accountants, bad managers, bad clowns, bad Christians, bad atheists, bad Muslims, bad anyone and everyone. The identification of a small subset of group X who do bad things is of no consequence or significance.

4.4 million people have lost their homes due to a civil war not of their making, half are children, that is a real tragedy. We do well to focus on the 4.4 million innocents not on the 100 guilty.

Far greater harm will come to far greater numbers of innocent people if we simply abandon the victims of the Syrian civil war (a civil war our governments freaking fueled!) just because a tiny minority turn out to be bad apples.
Moonbat, that is the most Christian post on this whole thread. (I meant that as a complement not as an instult. :ohmy: )
Sometimes I think I might be Jesus.

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Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
You probably *are* the Jesus Tomk seems to be following...

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Copper
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Moonbat
Jan 10 2016, 02:35 PM
Quote:
 
The question is what are the limits?

Money is the simple and obvious one.

What about all the systems needed to support these new residents?

How many new police, fire, healthcare, housing, education, administrative and other people are needed? How long will it take to get them? How much food is needed? How long will it take to grow this food?

Money is a consideration but you can just blow that off like the magic obamacare money.


Well I guess a base estimate is to just multiple the services by the change in population.

Germany has 296 police men per 100,000 so if they want to keep the same ratio they'd end up hiring 2960 policemen. Of course that doesn't have to happen immediately. If Germany don't hire any extra police they'll go from 296 per hundred thousand to 292 per hundred thousand. (The UK has 227 police men per 100,000, France has 356. Source.. The beautiful thing about states being inefficient is that it means they have redundancy built into them.

If the 4 million refugees were distributed amongst Europe and the US you would be adding 4 million people to a prexisting population of 743 + 318 (google) = 1.061 billion people. That equates to population change of 0.4%. You think that's going to cause social and economic collapse?

OK, that is some progress.

Still, it is just a rough number with obvious bias.

But if you worked at it I think you could understand that there are limits.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jan 10 2016, 03:06 PM
You probably *are* the Jesus Tomk seems to be following...

I follow the one from the Bible-- :bluebiggrin: Larry, you don't remember all of that stuff about loving your enemy and turning the other cheek? Or was that only for other people to follow?

Remember this?


“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.


Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.


Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.


Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.


Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.


Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.


Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Edited by TomK, Jan 10 2016, 05:29 PM.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
So.... where's the verse that says

"Thou shalt shove thy head up thy ass and make foolish decisions"?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Rainman
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Quote:
 
TomK:
. . . Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.


Was this written before that Mohammad guy laid down some new rules? Certainly it must have been written before New Years Eve.
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George K
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Moonbat
Jan 10 2016, 08:25 AM
The number of sexual assaults has remained constant yet immigration increased 2005 and 2014 - source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden.) Though to be honest it would make little difference to my argument. I don't understand how anyone can give credence to the notion that protecting small numbers of westerners outweighs helping large numbers of people in desperate situations.
Your link is broken.

Let's try this one:
Quote:
 
Two reports from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (BRÅ) are relevant to the rate of rape among immigrants to Sweden and their descendants. The latest published report that indicates the association between immigrants and rape was published in 2005 and revealed that from 1997 to 2001 foreign born individuals were 5.5 times more likely to be charged of rape than individuals born in Sweden to two Swedish parents and that foreign born individuals from all regions, apart from East Asia, committed sexual assaults at rates up to 5.3 times greater than that of individuals born in Sweden to two Swedish parents.[36] The report doesn't break down the foreign born category by country of origin despite the fact that country of origin has been found to be highly predictive of crime rates in other Nordic countries. However, a 1996 report by the BRÅ did break down rate of rape convictions by country of origin, using data from 1985 to 1989 it found particularly high rates of rape convictions among certain immigrant groups. After standardizing for age, sex and place of residence, the highest rates were for individuals born in North Africa (Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia), Italy, and Iraq who were convicted of rape at rates of 17.5, 16.5 and 12.5 times the native Swedish rate respectively. Although, according to crime victim surveys from the BRÅ, the actual rate of sex crimes has been more or less unchanged in Sweden between 2005 and 2014, despite the fact that immigration has increased during the same time period.

So, if the rate of rapes has not changed, but the immigrants are 5.5 times more likely to be rapists, that means the Swedes are getting more polite. And don't forget the Italians, of course.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Copper
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Shortstop
Sorry, but country of origin must never be predictive of anything.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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George K
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Finally
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-security-idUSKCN0VE0XL

Quote:
 
Islamic State militants have slipped into Europe disguised as refugees, the head of Germany's domestic intelligence agency (BfV) said on Friday, a day after security forces thwarted a potential IS attack in Berlin.

Hans-Georg Maassen said the terrorist attacks in Paris last November had shown that Islamic State was deliberately planting terrorists among the refugees flowing into Europe.

"Then we have repeatedly seen that terrorists ... have slipped in camouflaged or disguised as refugees. This is a fact that the security agencies are facing," Maassen told ZDF television.

"We are trying to recognize and identify whether there are still more IS fighters or terrorists from IS that have slipped in," he added.

The Berliner Zeitung newspaper cited Maassen on Friday as saying that the BfV had received more than 100 tip-offs that there were Islamic State fighters among the refugees currently staying in Germany.

German fears about an attack have risen since the Paris killings. On Thursday, German forces arrested two men suspected of links to Islamic State militants preparing an attack in the German capital.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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