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Bring in the refugees!
Topic Started: Jan 5 2016, 03:26 PM (4,607 Views)
Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
It will be fun, you said! What could go wrong, you said!

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/01/05/germans-shaken-by-new-year-mass-sexual-attacks-on-women/21292331/
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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
Quote:
 
She (the mayor) stressed that women must feel safe at traditional carnival celebrations next month when the city closes down for five days of drunken street parades and parties.
Reker was stabbed in the neck and seriously hurt in October, just a day before she was elected mayor. Police said that attack appeared to be motivated by her support for refugees.


It is interesting to read the comments. It was, what, maybe a year or two ago, when a sizable percentage of comments were chastising the hated or supposed "right wing" for being insensitive, xenophobic, anti-wonderful-immigrants, etc.etc.

Of course, it's only a tiny fraction of the migrant population. Yeah, right...
Just can't figure out how such a supposed tiny fraction of young muslim males massed together within hours. Do the "tiny fraction" hang together, really? And the 99% Good Guy young muslims -- live somewhere else?
Doesn't add up.
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George K
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Finally
More from the BBC:

Quote:
 
What is particularly disturbing is that the attacks appear to have been organised. Around 1,000 young men arrived in large groups, seemingly with the specific intention of carrying out attacks on women.

Police in Hamburg are now reporting similar incidents on New Year's Eve in the party area of St Pauli. One politician says this is just the tip of the iceberg.

And there are real concerns about what will happen in February when the drunken street-parties of carnival season kick off.

And Rahm nodded:

Posted Image

Quote:
 
Many people accused the national media of engaging in a cover-up due to the ethnic background of the criminals, with many pointing to the fact that it took days before the details of the story reached national attention.

One commentator wrote sarcastically that “it is fascinating that the event in Cologne on New Year made it through the media censorship.”

Another person tweeted that “the public broadcasters aren’t reporting the events of Cologne… Says it all - educational mission and all that!”

Other Twitter users worried that the attacks would lead to a backlash against refugees, writing “it makes me sad that the refugees who really need protection will bear the brunt of the hatred because of Cologne. We need to be able to tell the difference.”

Writing for the Huffington Post Deutschland, Anabel Schunke accused the police of covering up details about the suspected criminals in order to protect public order.

Questioning why no details were given on the appearance of the suspects when police called for witnesses, despite plentiful CCTV footage, Schunke suggested that police chose to leave important details out so that the public would not make a connection between the crime and refugees.
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brenda
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..............
Female lives matter ... not so much in some cases.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Well, you see... all God's creatures are equal, and we must treat them with kindness and respect. If these gentlemen are out raping women it isn't because of their religious background or their ethnicity, or their culture.. it *must* be because we just haven't shown them enough love..

So everybody, up on your feet! dance in circles and toss flower petals and chant "Ommmmmmmmm"

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Zero evidence that any of the perpetrator is a refugee, and already you all conclude that they are refugees.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
brenda
Jan 5 2016, 05:23 PM
Female lives matter ... not so much in some cases.
Yes, female lives matter, and female infanticide is (or at least used to be) a serious problem in China.

That said, your comment is a non sequitur here because no where in the article says anything about female lives not mattering.

Now I turn around and ask you:

Do you think refugees' lives matter, too?
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Rainman
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Quote:
 
Axtremus
Zero evidence that any of the perpetrator is a refugee, and already you all conclude that they are refugees.


You are correct. They are not refugees, they are for the most part migrants. Uneducated, uncivilized, muslims. Oh, except for all the rocket scientists and brain surgeons.
:silly:
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Axtremus
Jan 5 2016, 07:21 PM
brenda
Jan 5 2016, 05:23 PM
Female lives matter ... not so much in some cases.
Yes, female lives matter, and female infanticide is (or at least used to be) a serious problem in China.

That said, your comment is a non sequitur here because no where in the article says anything about female lives not mattering.

Now I turn around and ask you:

Do you think refugees' lives matter, too?
Ive tried my best to figure out what part of your brain has withered and died, but I just can't.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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brenda
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..............
Axtremus
Jan 5 2016, 07:21 PM
brenda
Jan 5 2016, 05:23 PM
Female lives matter ... not so much in some cases.
Yes, female lives matter, and female infanticide is (or at least used to be) a serious problem in China.

That said, your comment is a non sequitur here because no where in the article says anything about female lives not mattering.

Now I turn around and ask you:

Do you think refugees' lives matter, too?
How many days did it take for the article to be printed? That's an indicator. If you can't see the point, that's unfortunate.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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brenda
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..............
BTW, Ax, I said nothing about refugees. That's you injecting your own bias.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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Rainman
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Quote:
 
Axtremus:
Do you think refugees' lives matter, too?


Yes, of course!!

My parents were refugees. They were fortunate to find a sponsor (Presbyterian Church) and an individual wealthy person to assure that not only would my parents enter this country with cash (albeit minimal), but a job waiting for my Dad, as well as a place to live. There were no government hand-outs. PERIOD!!!! If the pavement was not laid, no dice for entering the U.S.

No government guaranteed welfare i.e, no "guaranteed payment" as in the EU, from miserly Eastern Bloc to top-notch Germany or Swedish cash/monthly stipends for just being able to get there, come hell or high water, just Get There and tap into the socialist system of benefits.

And given this required and mandated substantiated support a priori, my parents arrived at Ellis Island, and made a success of their lives following the American Dream.

As I understand it, you are of Asian descent. What's your story i.e., family history?

(I learned from you, to always ask a question at the end of a post...)

hmmmm, Ax. Perhaps we have a disagreement of what "refugee" really means, and the respective responsibilities of the host country and the individual applicant?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
brenda
Jan 5 2016, 08:38 PM
BTW, Ax, I said nothing about refugees. That's you injecting your own bias.
I did not say that you have said anything about the refugees.

I only ask you this question:

Do you think the refugees' lives matter, too?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rainman
Jan 5 2016, 08:40 PM
Quote:
 
Axtremus:
Do you think refugees' lives matter, too?


Yes, of course!!

My parents were refugees. They were fortunate to find a sponsor (Presbyterian Church) and an individual wealthy person to assure that not only would my parents enter this country with cash (albeit minimal), but a job waiting for my Dad, as well as a place to live. There were no government hand-outs. PERIOD!!!! If the pavement was not laid, no dice for entering the U.S.

No government guaranteed welfare i.e, no "guaranteed payment" as in the EU, from miserly Eastern Bloc to top-notch Germany or Swedish cash/monthly stipends for just being able to get there, come hell or high water, just Get There and tap into the socialist system of benefits.

And given this required and mandated substantiated support a priori, my parents arrived at Ellis Island, and made a success of their lives following the American Dream.

As I understand it, you are of Asian descent. What's your story i.e., family history?

(I learned from you, to always ask a question at the end of a post...)

hmmmm, Ax. Perhaps we have a disagreement of what "refugee" really means, and the respective responsibilities of the host country and the individual applicant?
Alright, Rainman, it looks like you have a thing against government handout. So let me first offer an apology for what I am about to say in response to your post. I mean no offense but cannot completely rule out the possibility that you might take offense anyway, so my apology to you in advance to get that out of the way.

You told me your parents' refugee story and asked about my family's story.

You said your parents received no government handout and had only a church and a wealthy individual who offered sponsorship and employment. Great!

Do you think it really matters whether it's the government or some other NGO that offered the sponsorship or the employment? I don't.

Would you think of your parents any less if the sponsorship and/or the job for your father were offered by the government instead? Just in case you might, I would tell you that you shouldn't.

[The above should erase the line that you may have drawn to separate "government sponsorship/employment" and "church/individual sponsorship/employment.]

On the subject of handout (and I am not saying that your parents accepted a handout, as you have been careful to state that your father was offered employment), a handout is a handout, regardless of whether it's the church or the government or some other private individuals or private entities giving it. From time to time, events beyond one's control deal devastating blows to one's livelihood and necessitate one to accept handouts in order to survive. I see no shame in accepting a handout when one is genuinely needed. Nonetheless, I do hold a certain level of disdain for (1) those who can work and have the opportunity to work but choose not to work and continue to receive handout anyway, and (2) those who underreport their income to continue to receive handout. But if one genuinely needs a handout to get back up on one's feet so one can resume making contributions to society, take the handout and move on. Don't let your pointless pride stop you from giving yourself a fighting chance to make bigger contributions to society down the road.

Now if a handout is what you object to anyway, let me ask you this: Would you feel better about the refugees if the government makes all the able-bodied refugees perform work anyway as condition to maintain their refugee status? If you answer yes, then indeed your objection to taking in refugees is about handout. If you answer no, then your objection is about something other than handout ... you'll have to tell me what is it that you object to then, if it's not about handout.

Now, as a general rule, I do not post about my personal story or my family's story because (1) I see their stories and theirs to tell own their own if they so choose, and (2) specific to discussion fora like this, what I write should be judged on its own merit. The ideas and arguments I put forth should neither be raised nor discounted due to my or my family's "life story." (You can imagine me rolling my eyes whenever I hear politicians talk about their "working class" parents/grandparents.)

Nonetheless, I did let slip a few months ago about an elderly matriarch's passing. So I will use her story to respond to you inquiry. Was she a refugee? Yes, war came to where she lived, so she bugged out with whatever she could grab and carry at the last minute, scrambled to get on a boat, and floated to another country.

Did she received government handout where she landed? No, none was offered.

Did she have a sponsor at where she landed? No, she did not. (No time to look for one before she bugged out.)

Did she have offer of cash or employment at where she landed. No, she did not. (No time to look for one before she begged out.)

She survived. She found/created her own livelihood. She managed to raise a bunch of children (sadly, also lost some), some of whom grew up to be "job creators."

Now, am I suppose to conclude that she is somehow "better" than your parents because not only she did not receive any government handout, she also did not receive any church sponsorship or cash or employment a priori? That is not how it's supposed to work, is it?

I would think no less of her if she did received church sponsorship, or cash or employment from another benefactor.

So why should you think less of the refugees who receive government handouts today?

When Pope Francis called on Catholic churches and Catholic families who can to each take in a refugee, he did not tell them to charge room and board or keep tab of rent not paid, nor did he tell them to require labor in lieu of rent. Is free housing not handout? I think it is. Is free housing provided by the church or an individual any less a handout than the same provided by a government? I think not.

So this is what I want to tell you: Don't judge the refugees for taking a handout, it doesn't matter whether it's government handout or some other handout. Judge them for what they accomplish with the rest of their lives. (If you prefer not to judge at all, that's fine with me too.)
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brenda
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..............
Axtremus
Jan 5 2016, 10:04 PM
brenda
Jan 5 2016, 08:38 PM
BTW, Ax, I said nothing about refugees. That's you injecting your own bias.
I did not say that you have said anything about the refugees.

I only ask you this question:

Do you think the refugees' lives matter, too?
Yes, of course.

Now tell me why you are not focused on the women who were attacked in what appears to be a coordinated way.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
That has to be the longest and most thorough post I have ever seen Ax write!

:D
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John Galt
Fulla-Carp
brenda
Jan 6 2016, 06:02 AM
Axtremus
Jan 5 2016, 10:04 PM
brenda
Jan 5 2016, 08:38 PM
BTW, Ax, I said nothing about refugees. That's you injecting your own bias.
I did not say that you have said anything about the refugees.

I only ask you this question:

Do you think the refugees' lives matter, too?
Yes, of course.

Now tell me why you are not focused on the women who were attacked in what appears to be a coordinated way.
Because Ax doesn't distinguish between "us" and "them".

How much time do we spend talking about civilian injuries and deaths in Iraq that were due to the U.S. invasion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#U.S._armed_forces
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
spoke today to a plastic surgery resident who is from hamburg.

she said these drunken attacks on women have been happening for years, but that the press picked up on it this year specifically to use it to bash merkel. the phenomonen is not new and not necessarily 2015 syria refugee related although it is clearly done by young arab men, who are obviously recent immigrants.
Edited by bachophile, Jan 6 2016, 06:36 AM.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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brenda
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..............
Well, if Ax doesn't care that the women were attacked, so be it. I don't expect to change him.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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brenda
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bachophile
Jan 6 2016, 06:30 AM
spoke today to a plastic surgery resident who is from hamburg.

she said these drunken attacks on women have been happening for years, but that the press picked up on it this year specifcically to use it to bash merkel. the phenomonen is not new and not necessarily 2015 syria refugee related although it is clearly done by young arab men, who are obviously recent immigrants.
Happening for years? No wonder there are protests.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Jan 6 2016, 06:30 AM


she said these drunken attacks on women have been happening for years, but that the press picked up on it this year specifcically to use it to bash merkel. the phenomonen is not new and not necessarily 2015 syria refugee related although it is clearly done by young arab men, who are obviously recent immigrants.
That is more or less what I heard last evening on a CBC radio news special discussing the event.
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John Galt
Fulla-Carp
Am unclear how Ax went from "not focused on" to "doesn't care." Bit of a leap, I think.
Let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness.
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Catseye
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Pisa-Carp
BBC coverage -- http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046 -- was a collection of she-saw's and he-said's, and not much of substance.

I don't get where the figure 1,000 comes from. A crowd scene, confusion even without criminal activity, terrorism foremost in everyone's mind . . . the police chief was quoted as saying, " ... were of Arab or North African appearance." Eighty women reported being attacked, why couldn't some number of 'drunk and aggressive' young men have groped more than one woman?

I'm not saying there weren't 1,000. There could have been a dozen or a million for all I know. I just don't find this coverage to be that solid. It sounds to me like nobody knows for sure what happened.

Not denigrating it, either. Being groped by a drunk aggressive stranger is horrifying, terrifying.

And yes, Bach, if this has been happening 'for years', that's pretty pathological. I hope that young woman you spoke with wasn't as sanguine as she sounded.

I'm inclined to believe it was coordinated, with forethought; the article mentioned Hamburg and Stuttgart also -- unless it was just more of the kind of crazy sh!t that happens in cities. So I'm not certain of that, either.

It sure does seem like there's a worldwide crime spree in progress, though. If that turns out to be the case, I do believe it's time for a worldwide response.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
brenda
Jan 6 2016, 06:34 AM
Well, if Ax doesn't care that the women were attacked, so be it. I don't expect to change him.
..and just why do you feel the need to twist what he says. Does it make you feel better? Sorry, I'm not feeling charitable toward the typical Internet joust and thrust.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I got the impression he didn't care also. All he's done is minimize the victims while insisting on showing concern for the perpetrators.

When you're more concerned about the perps than you are with the victims, it is pretty obvious you don't care about the victims.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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