Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
not crying for cecil the lion
Topic Started: Aug 5 2015, 06:16 AM (483 Views)
bachophile
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&region=CColumn&module=MostEmailed&version=Full&src=me&WT.nav=MostEmailed

i thought this was an interesting perspective. not that i advocate rich americans going to kill wildlife, but i think this shows the other side of the equation
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
An interesting read from someone who has some insight. "We don't name our lions."

No shit.

A blogger posted another perspective - long but worth a read, because it points out the big picture of conservation in light of "hunting."

Quote:
 
I've been trying to avoid getting sucked into this topic but there's been so much insanity on the subject and even otherwise reasonable people have spouted such nonsense on it that I feel compelled to say something. So let me make the case here for why (lion) trophy hunting in Africa is not only not harmful but is in fact necessary for the continued survival of lions and other big game there.

Now I'm a bit of an odd duck when it comes to this subject since I'm someone very interested in hunting who has not actually ever gone hunting - mostly due to time and logistics than anything else. But I have read most of the classic hunting literature from Hunter to Ruark to Capstick as well as various modern reference guides to safaris so I believe I know more than the average person in this area.

I am also indebted to a friend of mine from South Africa who has put me a lot of knowledge on the subject. He's a professor here in the US who goes back to South Africa during summers to work as an assistant to a PH (professional hunter), and is very familiar with the on-the-ground realities when it comes to managing and hunting big game. One thing that becomes clear from the hunting writers and my friend is that they all have a respect (even love) for the animals they hunt as well as a deep knowledge of how they live, breed - and eventually die, which means they are also decidedly unsentimental about individual animals.

So let me lay out some facts for you...

- Without hunting lions have no economic value for the local people or ranchers. In fact they're a giant menacing pain in the ass since they tend to eat the locals' cattle as well as occasionally the locals themselves. There's really no upside at all to having an apex predator like a lion prowling around your village or ranch; only bad things can happen. Yes, there are photo-safaris but unless you're near tourist areas and are set up for it, there's not much money in this. So the reality is that without any economic incentive to keep the lions around, the locals end up driving them out or just poisoning them.

And here to paraphrase Jack Dunphy the alternative to allowing hunting is not perfection - it's the alternative. With no hunting at all you won't get a Lion King-Simba happy existence on the savannah, instead you'll see a slow gradual extinction of lions as a species due to loss of habitat and eradication by humans. Lions will not die out from hunting - rather it will be because none of the locals want them around or care enough about their continued existence to protect them. Ultimately the lions will live or die by whether the local people allow lions to coexist with them.

But with controlled trophy hunting, the lions suddenly do have economic value. Because the hunting is so strictly limited hunters will pay a lot to be allowed to take a trophy - $30,000 and up. And $30,000 goes a long way in Africa. This money is split between the land owner, the local villagers, and the government. For the land owner and villagers this makes up on any losses they might have suffered from the lions, and it also means that they have a strong incentive to protect and maintain the local lions e.g. maintaining water pools, not putting up fences, watching for poachers, etc. The money from hunting is a major source of revenue for some remote villages. The revenue to the government helps pay for full-time rangers, park wardens and equipment to protect the lion populations.

- Africa is a huge place. Bigger than most people can really imagine. So to say that lions are endangered is both correct and false. Depending on where you are in Africa lions may be endangered or they may be actually over-populated. Due to their territorial nature both may be true - too many lions in one area but very few in another nearby region. Logistically it's not possible to move lions hundreds of miles away to open areas so you have to manage the population locally. And that means allowing controlled hunting.

- Adult male lions do not die peacefully of old age. They tend to die from injuries sustained in battles with younger males or from starvation from being driven out of their territory. Both of which tend to be unpleasant, lingering deaths. This is the reality of male lion life. Also only a few breeding males are needed in an area to maintain and grow a lion population. So a mature adult male like Cecil who was close to the average life span of a male lion in the wild (10-14 years) is the most expendable member of any lion population.

Zimbabwe has a population of lions estimated around 1,680 and on average 10-40 lions a year are taken through hunting which is approximately 1-2% of the population - less than the natural death rate of adult lions. But the permit fees from each hunted lion make a huge difference to the overall lion population. This isn't just theory - there are empirical results backing this up with elephant populations:

Quote:
 
Anti-hunting groups succeeded in getting Kenya to ban all hunting in 1977. Since then, its population of large wild animals has declined between 60 and 70 percent. The country's elephant population declined from 167,000 in 1973 to just 16,000 in 1989. Poaching took its toll on elephants because of their damage to both cropland and people. Today Kenya wildlife officials boast a doubling of the country's elephant population to 32,000, but nearly all are in protected national parks where poaching can be controlled. With only 8 percent of its land set aside as protected areas, it is no wonder that wildlife in general and elephants in particular have trouble finding hospitable habitat.

But in Zimbabwe controlled hunting was allowed and hunting revenues shared through the CAMPFIRE program:

Quote:
 
The numbers attest to the program's success. Ten years after the program began, wildlife populations had increased by 50 percent. By 2003, elephant numbers had doubled from 4,000 to 8,000. The gains have not just been for wildlife, however. Between 1989 and 2001, CAMPFIRE generated more than $20 million in direct income, the vast majority of which came from hunting. During that period, the program benefitted an estimated 90,000 households and had a total economic impact of $100 million.

The results go beyond the CAMPFIRE areas. Between 1989 and 2005, Zimbabwe's total elephant population more than doubled from 37,000 to 85,000, with half living outside of national parks. Today, some put the number as high as 100,000, even with trophy hunters such as Parsons around. All of this has occurred with an economy in shambles, regime uncertainty, and mounting socio-political challenges.

- Note that only hunters with proper permits and PH guides are allowed to hunt lions. The PH is responsible for obtaining all the permits and knowing all the local restrictions on hunting and knowing which animals can and can't be legally taken. So Dr. Walter Palmer was completely dependent on the PH and local guide when it came to shooting a lion. So if Cecil was shot illegally, the fault is all on the PH and crew. It's ironic that the person facing the most hate from all this (Palmer) is in fact the one most innocent of any charges of poaching.

So the bottom line is that if you actually care about the survival of lions as a species, you should support controlled trophy hunting. Hunters like Walter Palmer who paid $55,000 for the hunting permit have done far, far more to actually preserve real world lions in Africa than all of the hand-wringing celebrities and any of you reading this post. Ironically the weeping over Cecil and calls to ban all hunting of lions in Africa out of First World emotionalism may end up actually dooming them as a species. But everyone would still get to feel awesomely smug about their love of lions and general moral superiority from the comfort of their armchair .

Posted Image
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
I do buy the economic argument in favor of trophy hunting.

But that doesn't change the ethical consideration of whether it is OK to fly into a foreign country and contribute little more to hunting an animal than pulling the trigger.

The ability to earn money by prostitution is also improving the life of many people, but that doesn't make the Johns any less despicable.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
'Gary the Gazelle' :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Aug 5 2015, 06:46 AM
I do buy the economic argument in favor of trophy hunting.

But that doesn't change the ethical consideration of whether it is OK to fly into a foreign country and contribute little more to hunting an animal than pulling the trigger.

The ability to earn money by prostitution is also improving the life of many people, but that doesn't make the Johns any less despicable.
Several years ago, I flew into Northern Canada - about as far north as you can go without stepping into the arctic ocean, and went on a week long caribou hunt.

By Canadian law, my outfitter had to be majority First Peoples owned, which it was. Money I spent in Montreal and in Kuujjuaq, especially the latter, was dollars the Canadians would not have seen without my hunt. My guide (a B&C top ten listee) was one of an entire (New Foundland) family who made their yearly living working in the hunting and fishing camps.

I was just one guy and I probably didn't kick around more than $5K, or so. But multiply me by several thousand hunters or fishermen, and all the sudden, we're talking about real money.

Now, I'm going to refer you to a map of Kuujjuaq:

Posted Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuujjuaq

No offense, but how in the sugar are you going to make a living up there, if not off of the local wildlife? Farm?

The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Copper
Member Avatar
Shortstop
Klaus
Aug 5 2015, 06:46 AM
I do buy the economic argument in favor of trophy hunting.

But that doesn't change the ethical consideration of whether it is OK to fly into a foreign country and contribute little more to hunting an animal than pulling the trigger.

Kind of like contributing no more to driving a car than stepping on the accelerator.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
You were up in my family's neck of the woods, Jolly, Newfoundland.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Mikhailoh
Aug 5 2015, 11:47 AM
You were up in my family's neck of the woods, Jolly, Newfoundland.
Actually, I was up in Northern Quebec, but the family that was running our base camp were all from Newfoundland. Their last name was MacDonald, and they were some of the toughest people I've ever met.

They lived in a small town/village on the coast that had no complete roads leading in or out, but they did have roads to a few of the neighboring settlements. The family was pooling their money to buy a family vehicle - one vehicle for the father and his wife, two sons and their wives. They didn't consider hunting much of a sport, at least not the way their paying clients did it...The father explained to me, the best way to hunt moose - Ya wait fer the first big honkin' snow, then you run 'im down with the snowmobile and use a shotgun to put 'im down. Whilst we be fetching a moose, the gals will be at the chalet, catching enough fish fer the winter. We smoke the fish and hang the moose in the outside shed.

Of course, they had caribou meat, too. They didn't own a rifle, just a shotgun they used for ptarmigan, so since I was the first guy in camp to limit out, I let the oldest boy have my rifle to fill his tags. But since the outfitter charged them to transport their meat out, they usually only killed a couple and boned them out.

They had a very small store in their village, but also bought quite a few things off the grocery boat that came to call around once a month, except in winter...in winter, the Canadian government had to use an icebreaker to lead the grocery boat, so it may not dock but a couple of times.

They seemed like a happy, hard-working bunch. Kinda gruff, very direct, no BS. I really liked them.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Interesting. How long ago did you make the trip?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Aug 5 2015, 11:14 AM
No offense, but how in the sugar are you going to make a living up there, if not off of the local wildlife? Farm?

How in the sugar are you going to make a living in a favela in Brazil, if not by prostitution? Drugs?

I'm not blaming those who offer the hunting opportunities, just as I don't blame the hookers.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
jon-nyc
Aug 5 2015, 02:08 PM
Interesting. How long ago did you make the trip?
Over ten years ago. I used Safari Nordik as my outfitter, but I understand they aren't what they used to be.

A caribou hunt is not as strenuous as a Rocky Mountain elk hunt. You're hunting hilly country and you can glass a long way. It's a lot of walk to that hill over there, then set up and glass for thirty minutes, then walk to the next picked hill. Later in the year, when I went (the best bulls are late), you'd catch small groups of anywhere from two or three to maybe twenty migrating back down. Once you see them, you have to try to cut them off in time to get a shot.

An average day would be 10-15 miles walking, with frequent glassing stops. Weather is almost constant mist, rain, sleet or snow. You need some very comfortable, waterproof boots, good gore-tex hunting gear with a hood, a wool sweater and some lightweight thermal underwear that wicks extremely well. I like to hunt in wool watch hats, and that worked pretty well. Glass was a pair of 10x Nikon Monarchs and odds and neds got stuffed into a standard daypack.

You need a rifle that will reach. I used the smallest caliber in our hunting group. We had guys with 7mm mags, .300 mags and .338 mags. I was shooting my favorite .270, but it's handloaded to 7 mag velocities with solid copper Barnes bullets. I had no trouble, and one animal I shot was a bit over two hundred yards, but I still managed to break two ribs on the entrance wound and broke the shoulder on the way out. I have never recovered a Barnes bullet from that rifle, which is good - I like a hole going in and one going out.

I'm extremely picky about my meat, and I would not use the guide's butcher service. We boned ours out and packed it with dry ice to bring home. My wife is past good when it comes to wrapping meat and we were able to keep it for three years with no loss in quality, until it was all eaten.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Aug 6 2015, 02:41 AM
Jolly
Aug 5 2015, 11:14 AM
No offense, but how in the sugar are you going to make a living up there, if not off of the local wildlife? Farm?

How in the sugar are you going to make a living in a favela in Brazil, if not by prostitution? Drugs?

I'm not blaming those who offer the hunting opportunities, just as I don't blame the hookers.
Ever seen a favela without a road within 500 miles?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Aug 6 2015, 04:45 AM
Klaus
Aug 6 2015, 02:41 AM
Jolly
Aug 5 2015, 11:14 AM
No offense, but how in the sugar are you going to make a living up there, if not off of the local wildlife? Farm?

How in the sugar are you going to make a living in a favela in Brazil, if not by prostitution? Drugs?

I'm not blaming those who offer the hunting opportunities, just as I don't blame the hookers.
Ever seen a favela without a road within 500 miles?
No. And your point is?
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Aug 6 2015, 07:55 AM
Jolly
Aug 6 2015, 04:45 AM
Klaus
Aug 6 2015, 02:41 AM
Jolly
Aug 5 2015, 11:14 AM
No offense, but how in the sugar are you going to make a living up there, if not off of the local wildlife? Farm?

How in the sugar are you going to make a living in a favela in Brazil, if not by prostitution? Drugs?

I'm not blaming those who offer the hunting opportunities, just as I don't blame the hookers.
Ever seen a favela without a road within 500 miles?
No. And your point is?
My point is that there are ways to earn a living in a favela, beside drugs and prostitution. In fact, there are multiple avenues of opportunity available.

In the case of the Nunavik, there is very, very little in terms of opportunity. Think no roads to speak of within 500 miles. Think of the closest hospital with advanced capabilities being 1000 miles away. No hunters, no money. No money, and I hope you like whale blubber, polar bear steaks, arctic char and igloo living, because that's about where you are going to, should you be a native Inuit. And even then, notice that somebody is hunting, if only for subsistence.

When I was up there, black bears were a target of opportunity. Since the season was so late, the guides skirted the law by not selling you the tags until after you'd shot a bear. At one point, we had 24 guys hunting out of the same base camp. In one week, they managed to kill one bear...A decent 300 pounder, which is not huge, but certainly within reason - bear are notoriously hard to judge, and that's speaking from personal experience. Up close and very personal experience. There was one they thought might have been wounded, but nobody wanted to go in after him, not in the thickets. My buddy and I decided we'd wade in there and chance a little tete a tete with Mr. Bear, but never found any blood or evidence he was hit. I don't think he was.

We didn't have any polar bear tags, but the guides told us we might see one, as the time of the year was about right for a few to migrate down. If possible, i would have anted up and popped one of those guys in a heartbeat, but again, no tags. And alas, no white bears. Polar bears are one of the few creatures that have no fear of man and will routinely hunt people. They're big, they're fast and they're mean.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply