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| Confederate flags spotted outside the US | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 11 2015, 12:20 PM (3,380 Views) | |
| Mikhailoh | Jul 14 2015, 01:32 PM Post #76 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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What does it profit one to go about raging at 'symbols of racism'? They'd be a lot better off to get a college education and a job. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Luke's Dad | Jul 14 2015, 01:41 PM Post #77 |
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Emperor Pengin
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What does it profit one to go about raging about a flag that to a vast number of people is a reminder of a time when they were considered less than human. Is redneck pride really the hill that conservatism wants to stand and die on? |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 14 2015, 02:01 PM Post #78 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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You have a misplaced sense of events. No one was raging about the flag until the perpetually offended decided that was the price to pay for the nine people murdered. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Larry | Jul 14 2015, 02:07 PM Post #79 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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A good friend of mine, upon hearing the talk about banning the confederate flag, mounted one one each side of his truck on poles. he looks like he's leading a parade. Oh..... did I mention he's black? |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Valdez | Jul 14 2015, 02:21 PM Post #80 |
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Junior Carp
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A likely story. Kinfolk? Juan |
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| Larry | Jul 14 2015, 02:28 PM Post #81 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Luke's Dad | Jul 14 2015, 02:33 PM Post #82 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Wait a minute, the battle over the Confederate Flag has been raging for decades. Yes, recent events have pushed the issue back up to the front, but I remember the outcries over the Stars and Bars as far back as the 80's. Now I'm as ticked off about this whole perpetual outrage and blame casting as anybody. I've pointed out that while everybody was screaming that Zimmerman was a racist for assuming that the black kid in a hoodie was a violent criminal on drugs, they keep over looking the fact that Martin was a violent criminal on drugs. The Ferguson case was absurd and the protestors and the media are essentially responsible for killing a city, IMO. Yes, the left and the "community organizers" are creating race problems where none existed, but that doesn't mean that every single issue that they are yelling about is absurd. The confederate flag is one. A bunch of mostly white folk yell that the confederate flag had nothing to do with slavery, and that it's been coopted by the racists. Well that sucks, but the fact is that it has been co-opted. The Swastika was a symbol of good tidings and auspiciousness until the Nazis co-opted it. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Jul 14 2015, 02:35 PM Post #83 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Is this the guy? |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Larry | Jul 14 2015, 02:38 PM Post #84 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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lol... No. He teaches horseback riding and boards horses. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Luke's Dad | Jul 14 2015, 02:39 PM Post #85 |
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Emperor Pengin
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By the way, nobody as far as I know, is calling for a ban of the Stars and Bars. They are asking for it to not be on Government Buildings (a stance I agree with). Has it gone too far? Taking The Dukes of Hazzard off the air, and other similar instances? Absolutely, but it doesn't negate the fact that it has a very hateful and damaging connotation to a very large number of people. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Larry | Jul 14 2015, 02:41 PM Post #86 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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But that's because they've been taught incorrectly about just what the flag stands for. I see no reason to smear the memories of millions of peoples' ancestors who fought and died defending their land just because one small group of people are ignorant. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| FartSmeller | Jul 14 2015, 03:02 PM Post #87 |
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Member
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You say that as if, even if it were true, it would be a bad thing. Thanks for showing us that you're not only an a-hole, but you're a racist. |
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| Valdez | Jul 14 2015, 05:37 PM Post #88 |
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Junior Carp
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I'm not sure what's interesting unless you think a black guy legitimizes fairly shallow views on secession. Williams brings in no other than Mencken to slur the Gettysburg address as being too poetic. An elegy? Mencken also has a problem with Lincoln's nod to self-determination; that it was really the southerners who were fighting for self-determination without realizing that Lincoln thought that southern claims of self-determination while keeping four million slaves was absurd. There was no case history on secession at the time. After he said good bye to the senate Jefferson Davis wanted to be arrested so he could try the right of secession in court. Lincoln was sure it was illegal, but was unsure what could be done about it legally. Juan |
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| Copper | Jul 14 2015, 06:03 PM Post #89 |
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Shortstop
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What a deep view! |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 14 2015, 06:21 PM Post #90 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Holy cow, Larry... it doesn't matter how much of the article you quote, it's still a load of bushwah. It's a few historical facts embedded with a sh!tload of historical inaccuracies and unsubstantiated opinion. Almost every single part of it you quoted is historically wrong, and I simply don't have time to rebut the whole thing. I mean, let's take something as simple as this paragraph you quoted:
1) The fact is, the South DID lay siege to Fort Sumter, and DID fire the first shot. Hardly the action of "a Confederacy expressing its desire for peaceful relations"! 2) After Fort Sumter, the Confederacy, rather than express its desire for peaceful relations, put itself on a war footing as Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee joined it. 3) South Carolina did not offer to pay compensation for the fort after the Battle of Fort Sumter, and claimed that secession made it the property of South Carolina. Interestingly, this contrasts with the attitude of the Confederacy before the battle, when they did make preliminary offers to purchase federal properties in the South, acknowledging that they did in fact belong to the United States. 4) Lincoln never admitted that he deliberately provoked the attack. He did scrupulously try to avoid firing the first shot and played a waiting game, knowing that if the North was seen as the aggressor, he would lose the support of the border states. Ultimately Jefferson Davis ordered Beauregard to attack the fort if it did not surrender; Davis was opposed by his Secretary of State Robert Toombs, who said the attack: "will lose us every friend at the North. You will only strike a hornet's nest. ... Legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary. It puts us in the wrong. It is fatal." In fact, Anderson stated that he would evacuate the fort by April 15, but this wasn't soon enough for the Confederates, who attacked on April 12. Lincoln didn't provoke any of that, though after the war Davis and Stephens, and later neoConfederate historians, accused Lincoln of that, rather than admitting Davis had made a fatal decision and that Toombs had been correct. I guess most textbooks don't mention Griffith's facts because they're wrong. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 14 2015, 06:25 PM Post #91 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Holy sh!t, Larry. How can you read this and not have your head explode???
Yeah... the Confederacy was a beacon of liberty... EXCEPT FOR THE 3.5 MILLION SLAVES. Jesus H. Christ. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Valdez | Jul 14 2015, 06:27 PM Post #92 |
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Junior Carp
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The south of the civil war was a slave culture. Many of the southern states declarations of secession cite this slave culture and their fear of losing it as their reason for secession. That plus the southerners wanted to extend slavery to all new territories in addition to annexing cuba and parts of mexico. As for states rights, the CSA' s own constitution denies the states the right to abolish slavery. According to the 1860 census there were four million slaves in the south. Mississippi's slave population was 47 percent of the state's total. In Lee's army of Virginia half the officers owned slaves. 37 percent of the soldiers either owned slaves, lived with their family who owned slaves, or lived with non family who owned slaves. A joke among the Irish was that they should buy a slave so they'd have something to fight for. Robert Catlett Cave, a lost causer who was quoted earlier, claimed that southerners had slavery fastened onto them by greedy northern slave traders and the only humane thing to do was put the slaves to work. Almost as if these gallant Cavaliers were just minding their business, busy brushing their ponies and whoa four million negroes show up. Juan |
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| Red Rice | Jul 14 2015, 06:37 PM Post #93 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It's even funnier when your history is incorrect. I'll address your first four statements, ALL of which are wrong. 1) "The Atlantic slave traders, ordered by trade volume, were: the Portuguese, the British, the French, the Spanish, and the Dutch Empire." (Wiki) 2) It was British ship owners. The vast majority of indentured servants were brought over before the American Revolution; almost none were brought over afterwards. 3) It was disease that wiped out 90% of Native Americans. 4) No, they went where they were needed: "The majority of indentured servants ended in the American South, where cash crops necessitated labour-intensive farming. As the Northern colonies moved to more industrialisation and trade, they got significantly less indentured immigration. For example, 96.28% of English emigrants to Virginia and Maryland from 1773 to 1776 were indentured servants. During the same time period, only 1.85% of English emigrants to New England were indentured." (Wiki) |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Larry | Jul 14 2015, 07:17 PM Post #94 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Red Rice, I'm sorry but you are the one who's incorrect. I'll give you two examples: 1. Your take on what the man meant by "fired the first shot". You took that to mean he was claiming the North fired their guns first. That is not what the man said, and if you weren't reading everything with an eye toward defending the revisionist history that you have so thoroughly bought into you'd have seen that. 2. To say that 90% of american indians were killed by disease is laughable, and further proof that you have bought into the apologist version of history that, in these two examples, not only justifies the North's position, but the white man's position on what happened with the indians. Have you ever even been to a southern state? This isn't a matter of academics to us. This is something we grew up discussing, understanding, and living. You have nothing more than textbooks, and those textbooks are revisionist. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | Jul 14 2015, 07:19 PM Post #95 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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I suppose you believe that it was the British, the French, the Spanish, and the Dutch who then got off the ships with the slaves and held the auctions? lol |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Kincaid | Jul 14 2015, 07:51 PM Post #96 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Fun fact: My Mom's maiden name is Davis, and has traced our lineage back to Jefferson Davis and farther. He is perhaps the most notorious in our family tree. Except perhaps for a second-tier Western outlaw by the name of Sam Bass. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Valdez | Jul 14 2015, 07:53 PM Post #97 |
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Junior Carp
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Larry, you've got so many imaginary friends it's probably hard to keep up with them. The quasi-racist who always mentions his "black friends" is such a cliche I'm surprised you'd even use the ploy, especially to make a point about the confederate flag. Juan |
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| Red Rice | Jul 14 2015, 08:09 PM Post #98 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No, and of course Northern colonial slave traders and ports did exist, as did slaves in the North, though most slaves arrived in Southern ports, particularly Charleston. Slavery was legal in both the North and South prior to the American Revolution. However, the North started legally abolishing slavery in the 1780's, US importation of slaves in both the North and the South was ended in 1794, and international importation in 1807. After that, the slave trade was primarily conducted between Southern states. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 14 2015, 08:31 PM Post #99 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No, that's not what I thought. The man is arguing that when people say the South "fired the first shot", you have to put it into "proper context". I'm saying that's a weak excuse. Context be damned. It doesn't matter how he tries to obfuscate it, the South did fire the first shot and committed the first act of aggression that ignited the Civil War.
Actually, it's not laughable; it's been borne out by studies in many diverse fields, including archeology, genetics and epidemiology. If it hadn't been for the plagues that wiped out the Native populations along the Eastern seaboard, the Europeans may never have been able to establish a foothold there. Despite their more advanced weapons, the white dudes would have been too outnumbered and would not have been able to defeat the natives by force of arms. In my home state of Massachusetts, 96% of the Indians were wiped out by diseases introduced by Europeans TWO YEARS BEFORE the Pilgrims landed. The decimation of Native Americans by disease opened the door to European settlement, and may be the most significant event in American history.
Of course I've been to the South, Larry, and you're not the first Southerner I've had this discussion with. I like the South. A lot. The United States is better with the South in it. The South today is different than what is was 150 years ago. I just wish more Southerners would understand that. I don't know why so many Southerners insist on living in the past, while trying to selectively forget the great evil that was part of it. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Larry | Jul 14 2015, 09:01 PM Post #100 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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In other words, in your view of things nothing the federal government did mattered, and the South should have just sat there and taken it.. Right.
BULL SHIT Don't even try to go there with me, Red Rice. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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4:56 PM Jul 10